Discussion:
Killing for food: Mitzvah or sin?
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yechidah
2003-12-26 18:09:21 UTC
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Killing for food: Mitzvah or sin?
Jews debate history, ethics of vegetarianism
TAMI BICKLEY
Associate Editor



Jewish vegetarians say slaughtering animals for food is inhumane and goes
against the Torah, while others argue that eating kosher meat brings us
closer to God.

Imagine a High Holiday meal void of gefilte fish, matzo ball soup and
chicken or a Passover seder plate minus the shank bone. And what would we do
without chicken soup, a.k.a. "Jewish penicillin," to cure our bouts with the
flu?

For many Jews, the elimination of animal flesh - especially at Shabbat and
holiday gatherings - may not only seem untraditional, but the very
antithesis of a culture steeped in meat consumption. To Jewish vegetarians,
however, eliminating animal flesh from the diet is not only the healthier
and more humane way to live, but also the Jewish way.

For years a debate has raged between meat-eating Jews and those who shun
meat. And as scientific facts about the benefits of vegetarianism have
emerged in the secular world and awareness of the issue has woven its way
deeper into American society, the discussions regarding what we should and
should not eat have become all the more passionate.

But why is there debate over what would appear to be a highly individual
choice? It begins with the Torah and ends with the environment, with concern
for the welfare of animals falling somewhere in between.

There are basically two main camps concerning whether or not vegetarianism
is preferable in Jewish tradition to eating meat: Those who believe God
instructed us to consume the flesh of kosher animals in order to fulfill a
mitzvah (a commandment from God); and those who believe Jews and non-Jews
alike began life as vegetarians and were intended by God to remain that way.

In the beginning
"God's initial intention was that people be vegetarians," reads the opening
statement in "Judaism and Vegetarianism" by Richard Schwartz (Lantern Books,
$18 paperback). Schwartz adds that "the foremost Jewish commentator, Rashi (
1040-1105) says the following about God's first dietary law: 'God did not
permit Adam and his wife to kill a creature and to eat its flesh. Only every
green herb shall they eat together.' "

Dr. Jay Lavine, a former Valley ophthalmologist who now lives in Tucson,
where he practices Jewish medicine - the practice of medicine based upon
Jewish law and medical ethical principles - agrees that the world began with
vegetarianism.

"I think all of the major (Jewish) commentators agree that mankind was
vegetarian in the Garden of Eden," he tells Jewish News. "There is some
controversy ... as to whether at that point mankind was allowed to eat meat
from animals that had died a natural death even though they were not allowed
to slaughter animals."

Up until the flood, people were indeed allowed to eat animals, provided they
themselves didn't kill the animals, points out Rabbi Yossi Levertov of
Chabad of Scottsdale. After the flood, he explains, man was "given the
ability to (elevate the meat)."

Levertov, like a number of Jews - many of whom are Hasidic - believes that
by eating kosher animal flesh, we are helping the animal to achieve a
"spiritual elevation" that the animal cannot achieve on its own.

"If (a shechitah, ritual slaughterer) slaughters an animal according to
(Jewish) law and you make a (blessing) and you (eat it) at a (holiday or
simcha, milestone event), then you are extracting the Godly spark within it
and causing its appropriate elevation to ascend to wherever it's supposed to
ascend," he says. "This is the very purpose of why we were in this world.
... We take an energy and ascend it to above and we cause a spiritual light
to come down below. And if you eat something the proper way, even if it's
killing the animal (and) if you're doing it for a mitzvah and in the right
way and you're not eating it for pleasure, then you're elevating the Godly
element that's in there."

Vegetarians such as Lavine and Schwartz not only don't believe in the
so-called "elevation of a Godly spark," but insist that slaughtering an
animal for any reason and in any way, even if that way is considered kosher,
is inhumane and torturous.

"The essence of (the Godly spark theory) is that we could use other living
things such as meat to make ourselves stronger ... and healthier so that we
would be able to study Torah better and live better lives," says Lavine, an
Orthodox Jew. "And that's basically the fly in the ointment because we now
know that eating meat is not necessary to be strong and healthy and is in
fact associated with many chronic ailments.

"People tend to justify and rationalize everything they do, even if that's
not the reason they do it," he continues. "Everyone wants to think of
himself in a good way. Who wants to think of himself as someone who tortures
and abuses animals?"

Schwartz, who is also Orthodox, is a professor at the College of Staten
Island in Staten Island, N.Y., and has been a vegetarian for 22 years. He
points out that kabbalist Rabbi Isaac Luria once said that "only a Torah
scholar can elevate holy sparks trapped in the animal." The problem is that
most Jews are secular today, and even among those who are observant, only a
small number can consider themselves "so scholarly and spiritually advanced
to be able to eat meat."

The Torah
Though observant Jewish meat-eaters say they are simply abiding by God's
instructions and fulfilling the mitzvah involved in consuming meat, Jewish
vegetarians point to passages in the Torah that directly say or imply that
we should do the opposite.

"There is no question that the Torah's ideal is vegetarianism and that
eating meat is a concession," says Rabbi Bonnie Koppell of Temple Beth
Sholom in Chandler. "And the Talmud specifically says you should only eat
meat if you have a particular craving for it, and of course it has to be
kosher."

Rabbi Abraham Isaac Hakohen Kook (Rav Kook), a Torah scholar and the first
Ashkenazic chief rabbi of pre-state Israel, believed that "the permission to
eat meat was only a temporary concession; he felt that a God who is merciful
to His creatures would not institute an everlasting law permitting the
killing of animals for food."

Schwartz also refers to the time of Noah, in which the Torah states, "When
God saw how corrupt the earth was, for all flesh had corrupted its ways on
earth." (Genesis 6:12)

So, "as a concession to people's weakness," Schwartz writes, "permission to
eat meat was then given." And he quotes Torah, in which God instructs,
"Every creature that lives shall be yours to eat; as with the green grasses,
I give you all these." (Genesis 9:3)

Levertov disagrees that permission to eat meat was granted as a result of
people's desires.

"I've heard vegetarians say, 'God saw that man is evil and he can't help
(eating meat), so he allowed them to eat meat.' That is the most ridiculous
statement that anyone can make - that God is allowing the world to pull Him
by the nose, so to speak," contends Levertov. "There were a lot of (other)
temptations that we struggled with and (God) didn't allow us to get away
with it, so that is not a sound argument."

Levertov says people were given permission to slaughter animals for food
after the flood because they were at that time able to spiritually elevate
animals. Lavine explains through his personal Web site
(members.aol.com/sauromalus/jewishveg.htm) that there are a number of
reasons given as to why Jews were allowed to kill animals for consumption
after the flood - one of which was because following the flood, most of the
earth's vegetation was destroyed and without the full range of grains and
produce, "humans had to supplement their diets with animal products." And
"vegetarian diets ... became associated with poor health" at that time. But
now that meat eating "is associated with poor health," says Lavine, "there
is no reason to eat meat other than for reasons of ta'avah (lust)."

What's best for the animal?
Jewish vegetarians are quick to refer to tsa'ar ba'alei chayim mentioned in
the Torah, which means that Judaism forbids animals to suffer unnecessary
pain. While proponents of kosher meat may argue that animals killed in a
kosher way feel little or no pain, vegetarians contend the conditions under
which animals live before they are slaughtered are far from humane.

It was a local article about the beef industry in the late 1980s that
prompted Lavine to eliminate red meat from his diet. Today he is a vegan
(one who does not consume, wear or purchase any animal products or
by-products).

"The article talked about a beef-packing plant in Phoenix and the conditions
within the plant and how cows were often not stunned comple ely and would
thrash around and injure the workers and suffer a great deal in the
process," Lavine recalls. "I read what went on in slaughterhouses and ... it
didn't really seem right to be eating meat knowing what was going into the
production of that meat."

Although kosher meat is derived from animals that are killed in a kosher
manner by a shechitah and inspected carefully for diseases, the animals
don't live their lives in special Jewish sections. They are treated no
differently than the masses of animals that will be sold on the non-kosher
market, says Lavine.

As more people become aware of the inhumane conditions in these plants, they
are searching for meat that comes from "free-range animals." These animals
are not caged or force-fed and are allowed to roam the pastures. Some
free-range animals are also considered organic when they have not been given
hormones or antibiotics during their lives.

"I'm sure there is a decreased amount of suffering in the life of an animal
(that's free-range) while it's still alive," says Lavine, noting that a
free-range animal still suffers a painful death.

Furthermore, he says, even though a kosher ritual slaughtering involves a
perfect blade that makes a clean cut through the animal's neck, "I don't
think any thinking individual could think that an animal could have its
throat slit while fully conscious and not be suffering in the process," he
says. "While people talk about kosher slaughter as being humane, these are
individuals who are really suppressing what's going on. And they have an
idea of animals in their own mind as just beings that really don't think and
don't have any true feelings, and that is not scientifically correct."

Levertov's reply to those who are concerned with the feelings of animals is
that "anyone who is worried about the animal has to look in the Torah to see
the facts." Though he agrees that the Torah does explicitly prohibit the
torturing of animals for no reason, he points out that the Torah is also
"filled with the (meat) offerings we had in biblical times," and that "the
same God that says you shouldn't torture animals says you should do certain
things (such as ritual slaughtering) in a very particular way. ... The
discussions with regard to (kashrut) say it's the most humane way of
killing."

Although there is no commandment that one must eat meat on the Sabbath,
Levertov says that the Talmud interprets the Torah's commandment "to
rejoice" on holidays by eating meat and drinking wine. If one does not like
the taste of meat or wine or is concerned about the effects of the two on
one's health, then one can refrain, Levertov says. But when the issue is
about the health of the cow, "then we have to look at it from God's
perspective, not from man's perspective," he says. "Then we are following
(God) and connecting to Him. If we are worried only about how we perceive
it, then we're not believing in God and we're not relating to God. We're
relating to ourselves."

Environmental concerns
Schwartz became a vegetarian when he learned that in the United States, 70
percent of grain is fed to animals in order to produce meat, whereas it
could be better used toward relieving world hunger, he says.

"Judaism has important teachings about taking care of our health, compassion
for animals, conserving the environment, conserving resources and helping
the hungry," he says.

Lavine, through his Web site, notes that mankind was placed in the Garden of
Eden to take care of it (Genesis 2:15) and this "can be considered the first
lesson in environmental responsibility." Also, he says, "the concept of bal
tashchit (you shall not waste) derived form the Torah, serves as a reminder
to conserve precious resources."

Raising farm animals wastes water and causes pollution and run-off, Lavine
explains, and both the greenhouse effect and global warming - major
environmental concerns - have been attributed to the raising of livestock.

Health issues
An authority on preventative nutrition, Lavine says that after being a vegan
for many years, he has never felt better. Before eschewing meat, he weighed
180 pounds and had a 36-inch waist. Now, he weighs 135 and has a 30-inch
waist. In addition, he never feels aches or pains and has an abundance of
energy.

In recent years, the public has been inundated with evidence that cutting
out meat - especially red meat - from the diet can lead to improved health,
a decreased chance of developing heart disease and cancer among other
ailments, and can prolong life. Of course, there are those who consider meat
to be the best way to receive an adequate amount of protein.

"All of the major causes of death due to cancer are linked to diet," Lavine
says. His Web site explains that Judaism stresses the importance of
maintaining health and not harming oneself.

The Torah commands us to "be most careful," (Deuteronomy 4:15), he says.
"This means that we must do everything possible to guard our health and not
take unnecessary risks."

In addition to meat's proven link to cancer, clogged arteries and other
health-related problems, it can also be a source of poison if it is
contaminated. In recent months, talk of mad cow disease and foot-and-mouth
disease are scaring people from eating meat. Livestock - no matter if it is
intended to eventually enter the kosher market or not - is all fed the same
food and treated the same way, explain Lavine and Schwartz.

"The kosher laws are not designed for health reasons. That's a misconception
people have," Lavine says. "The (laws) do provide some safeguard in that the
lungs of the animal are inspected after slaughter and one looks for evidence
of disease processes." But, he adds, what these animals were fed during
their lives before they entered the kosher system "is anyone's guess."

Levertov, who says it's OK to be concerned with one's own health when
deciding whether or not to eat meat, says no one is expected to "stuff his
face with meat," and doing so is indulgence, anyway. He himself eats red
meat only a few times a year, usually on holidays. And he says he and his
family - although they have considered switching to free-range kosher meat -
are not concerned about contracting an illness from meat.

Additionally, many meat-eaters point out that just because one abstains from
meat doesn't mean he or she will not be subject to food poisoning, as
contamination can occur through produce or other food products.

Kashrut through vegetarianism
During his meat-eating days, Lavine did not abide by kosher laws. After
becoming a vegetarian and especially after choosing to be a vegan, keeping
kosher seemed to be a natural and easy progression, he says.

Not eating meat may mean not keeping two sets of dishes; not having to worry
about waiting to eat dairy after meat or vice versa; and not having to
purchase kosher meat. But Lavine stresses that although it may seem as
though vegetarians are kosher by default, they are not.

"All of us buy processed foods, and processed foods may have ingredients in
them that are not kosher or may have been prepared in vessels in which
non-kosher foods had previously been placed." Therefore, it is important to
look for a hecscher (kosher symbol) on processed foods, he says.

Because it is getting easier to be vegetarian in the United States, Koppell
says she has witnessed Jews who are so overwhelmed at the prospect of
becoming kosher that they become vegetarian to ease the process.

"For many people, vegetarianism is their entr?e into keeping kosher," she
says.

While Levertov favors any reason for Jews to follow the laws of kashrut, he
doesn't see vegetarianism as the magical path by which to do it.

"If (vegetarianism) helps people to be kosher, so be it," he says. "But now
you're just talking about practical reasons."

Whether or not the laws of kashrut figure into people's decisions to become
vegetarian, Jewish tradition may continue to be connected with holiday meals
featuring animal flesh as the main course. Vegetarians say Jews are slowly
opening up to vegetarianism, but as long as society consists mainly of
meat-eaters, the idea may remain avant garde for quite some time.

And though individuals may see what they put on their dinner tables and into
their mouths as personal decisions, Schwartz feels nothing could be further
from the truth.

"Vegetarianism has become a societal imperative today. It's not only an
important individual choice ... but in mathematical terms its necessary."

http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/010427/food.shtml


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cindys
2003-12-26 20:23:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Killing for food: Mitzvah or sin?
Jews debate history, ethics of vegetarianism
TAMI BICKLEY
Associate Editor
Jewish vegetarians say slaughtering animals for food is inhumane and goes
against the Torah,
As we have already discussed ad nauseum in this forum, they are absolutely
wrong since the torah clearly permits and encourages us to eat meat. If
someone wishes to be a vegetarian for his own personal reasons, that of
course is his prerogative, but any Jew who asserts that eating animals is
inhumane or goes against the torah is clearly an ignoramus. Richard
Schwartz, who is cited below, is a classic example of such an individual who
understands very little about torah Judaism, yet attempts to hijack the
torah to promote his own personal vegetarian agenda. If being a vegetarian
were inhumane or anti-torah, then there would be large numbers of Orthodox
Jewish vegetarians, which of course there are not. Vegetarianism is almost
unheard of amongst the Orthodox. Even Rav Kook, the big-name rabbi who
believed that we would be vegetarians in the messianic age, ate meat for
shabbos and yom tov. Our sages clearly taught that there can be no joy
without meat and wine. To argue that something which the torah clearly
permits and in some cases mandates is inhumane or sinful is outright
anti-torah, and by definition heretical.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Post by yechidah
while others argue that eating kosher meat brings us
closer to God.
Imagine a High Holiday meal void of gefilte fish, matzo ball soup and
chicken or a Passover seder plate minus the shank bone. And what would we do
without chicken soup, a.k.a. "Jewish penicillin," to cure our bouts with the
flu?
For many Jews, the elimination of animal flesh - especially at Shabbat and
holiday gatherings - may not only seem untraditional, but the very
antithesis of a culture steeped in meat consumption. To Jewish
vegetarians,
Post by yechidah
however, eliminating animal flesh from the diet is not only the healthier
and more humane way to live, but also the Jewish way.
For years a debate has raged between meat-eating Jews and those who shun
meat. And as scientific facts about the benefits of vegetarianism have
emerged in the secular world and awareness of the issue has woven its way
deeper into American society, the discussions regarding what we should and
should not eat have become all the more passionate.
But why is there debate over what would appear to be a highly individual
choice? It begins with the Torah and ends with the environment, with concern
for the welfare of animals falling somewhere in between.
There are basically two main camps concerning whether or not vegetarianism
is preferable in Jewish tradition to eating meat: Those who believe God
instructed us to consume the flesh of kosher animals in order to fulfill a
mitzvah (a commandment from God); and those who believe Jews and non-Jews
alike began life as vegetarians and were intended by God to remain that way.
In the beginning
"God's initial intention was that people be vegetarians," reads the opening
statement in "Judaism and Vegetarianism" by Richard Schwartz (Lantern Books,
$18 paperback). Schwartz adds that "the foremost Jewish commentator, Rashi (
1040-1105) says the following about God's first dietary law: 'God did not
permit Adam and his wife to kill a creature and to eat its flesh. Only every
green herb shall they eat together.' "
Dr. Jay Lavine, a former Valley ophthalmologist who now lives in Tucson,
where he practices Jewish medicine - the practice of medicine based upon
Jewish law and medical ethical principles - agrees that the world began with
vegetarianism.
"I think all of the major (Jewish) commentators agree that mankind was
vegetarian in the Garden of Eden," he tells Jewish News. "There is some
controversy ... as to whether at that point mankind was allowed to eat
meat
Post by yechidah
from animals that had died a natural death even though they were not allowed
to slaughter animals."
Up until the flood, people were indeed allowed to eat animals, provided they
themselves didn't kill the animals, points out Rabbi Yossi Levertov of
Chabad of Scottsdale. After the flood, he explains, man was "given the
ability to (elevate the meat)."
Levertov, like a number of Jews - many of whom are Hasidic - believes that
by eating kosher animal flesh, we are helping the animal to achieve a
"spiritual elevation" that the animal cannot achieve on its own.
"If (a shechitah, ritual slaughterer) slaughters an animal according to
(Jewish) law and you make a (blessing) and you (eat it) at a (holiday or
simcha, milestone event), then you are extracting the Godly spark within it
and causing its appropriate elevation to ascend to wherever it's supposed to
ascend," he says. "This is the very purpose of why we were in this world.
... We take an energy and ascend it to above and we cause a spiritual light
to come down below. And if you eat something the proper way, even if it's
killing the animal (and) if you're doing it for a mitzvah and in the right
way and you're not eating it for pleasure, then you're elevating the Godly
element that's in there."
Vegetarians such as Lavine and Schwartz not only don't believe in the
so-called "elevation of a Godly spark," but insist that slaughtering an
animal for any reason and in any way, even if that way is considered kosher,
is inhumane and torturous.
"The essence of (the Godly spark theory) is that we could use other living
things such as meat to make ourselves stronger ... and healthier so that we
would be able to study Torah better and live better lives," says Lavine, an
Orthodox Jew. "And that's basically the fly in the ointment because we now
know that eating meat is not necessary to be strong and healthy and is in
fact associated with many chronic ailments.
"People tend to justify and rationalize everything they do, even if that's
not the reason they do it," he continues. "Everyone wants to think of
himself in a good way. Who wants to think of himself as someone who tortures
and abuses animals?"
Schwartz, who is also Orthodox, is a professor at the College of Staten
Island in Staten Island, N.Y., and has been a vegetarian for 22 years. He
points out that kabbalist Rabbi Isaac Luria once said that "only a Torah
scholar can elevate holy sparks trapped in the animal." The problem is that
most Jews are secular today, and even among those who are observant, only a
small number can consider themselves "so scholarly and spiritually advanced
to be able to eat meat."
The Torah
Though observant Jewish meat-eaters say they are simply abiding by God's
instructions and fulfilling the mitzvah involved in consuming meat, Jewish
vegetarians point to passages in the Torah that directly say or imply that
we should do the opposite.
"There is no question that the Torah's ideal is vegetarianism and that
eating meat is a concession," says Rabbi Bonnie Koppell of Temple Beth
Sholom in Chandler. "And the Talmud specifically says you should only eat
meat if you have a particular craving for it, and of course it has to be
kosher."
Rabbi Abraham Isaac Hakohen Kook (Rav Kook), a Torah scholar and the first
Ashkenazic chief rabbi of pre-state Israel, believed that "the permission to
eat meat was only a temporary concession; he felt that a God who is merciful
to His creatures would not institute an everlasting law permitting the
killing of animals for food."
Schwartz also refers to the time of Noah, in which the Torah states, "When
God saw how corrupt the earth was, for all flesh had corrupted its ways on
earth." (Genesis 6:12)
So, "as a concession to people's weakness," Schwartz writes, "permission to
eat meat was then given." And he quotes Torah, in which God instructs,
"Every creature that lives shall be yours to eat; as with the green grasses,
I give you all these." (Genesis 9:3)
Levertov disagrees that permission to eat meat was granted as a result of
people's desires.
"I've heard vegetarians say, 'God saw that man is evil and he can't help
(eating meat), so he allowed them to eat meat.' That is the most ridiculous
statement that anyone can make - that God is allowing the world to pull Him
by the nose, so to speak," contends Levertov. "There were a lot of (other)
temptations that we struggled with and (God) didn't allow us to get away
with it, so that is not a sound argument."
Levertov says people were given permission to slaughter animals for food
after the flood because they were at that time able to spiritually elevate
animals. Lavine explains through his personal Web site
(members.aol.com/sauromalus/jewishveg.htm) that there are a number of
reasons given as to why Jews were allowed to kill animals for consumption
after the flood - one of which was because following the flood, most of the
earth's vegetation was destroyed and without the full range of grains and
produce, "humans had to supplement their diets with animal products." And
"vegetarian diets ... became associated with poor health" at that time. But
now that meat eating "is associated with poor health," says Lavine, "there
is no reason to eat meat other than for reasons of ta'avah (lust)."
What's best for the animal?
Jewish vegetarians are quick to refer to tsa'ar ba'alei chayim mentioned in
the Torah, which means that Judaism forbids animals to suffer unnecessary
pain. While proponents of kosher meat may argue that animals killed in a
kosher way feel little or no pain, vegetarians contend the conditions under
which animals live before they are slaughtered are far from humane.
It was a local article about the beef industry in the late 1980s that
prompted Lavine to eliminate red meat from his diet. Today he is a vegan
(one who does not consume, wear or purchase any animal products or
by-products).
"The article talked about a beef-packing plant in Phoenix and the conditions
within the plant and how cows were often not stunned completely and would
thrash around and injure the workers and suffer a great deal in the
process," Lavine recalls. "I read what went on in slaughterhouses and ... it
didn't really seem right to be eating meat knowing what was going into the
production of that meat."
Although kosher meat is derived from animals that are killed in a kosher
manner by a shechitah and inspected carefully for diseases, the animals
don't live their lives in special Jewish sections. They are treated no
differently than the masses of animals that will be sold on the non-kosher
market, says Lavine.
As more people become aware of the inhumane conditions in these plants, they
are searching for meat that comes from "free-range animals." These animals
are not caged or force-fed and are allowed to roam the pastures. Some
free-range animals are also considered organic when they have not been given
hormones or antibiotics during their lives.
"I'm sure there is a decreased amount of suffering in the life of an animal
(that's free-range) while it's still alive," says Lavine, noting that a
free-range animal still suffers a painful death.
Furthermore, he says, even though a kosher ritual slaughtering involves a
perfect blade that makes a clean cut through the animal's neck, "I don't
think any thinking individual could think that an animal could have its
throat slit while fully conscious and not be suffering in the process," he
says. "While people talk about kosher slaughter as being humane, these are
individuals who are really suppressing what's going on. And they have an
idea of animals in their own mind as just beings that really don't think and
don't have any true feelings, and that is not scientifically correct."
Levertov's reply to those who are concerned with the feelings of animals is
that "anyone who is worried about the animal has to look in the Torah to see
the facts." Though he agrees that the Torah does explicitly prohibit the
torturing of animals for no reason, he points out that the Torah is also
"filled with the (meat) offerings we had in biblical times," and that "the
same God that says you shouldn't torture animals says you should do certain
things (such as ritual slaughtering) in a very particular way. ... The
discussions with regard to (kashrut) say it's the most humane way of
killing."
Although there is no commandment that one must eat meat on the Sabbath,
Levertov says that the Talmud interprets the Torah's commandment "to
rejoice" on holidays by eating meat and drinking wine. If one does not like
the taste of meat or wine or is concerned about the effects of the two on
one's health, then one can refrain, Levertov says. But when the issue is
about the health of the cow, "then we have to look at it from God's
perspective, not from man's perspective," he says. "Then we are following
(God) and connecting to Him. If we are worried only about how we perceive
it, then we're not believing in God and we're not relating to God. We're
relating to ourselves."
Environmental concerns
Schwartz became a vegetarian when he learned that in the United States, 70
percent of grain is fed to animals in order to produce meat, whereas it
could be better used toward relieving world hunger, he says.
"Judaism has important teachings about taking care of our health, compassion
for animals, conserving the environment, conserving resources and helping
the hungry," he says.
Lavine, through his Web site, notes that mankind was placed in the Garden of
Eden to take care of it (Genesis 2:15) and this "can be considered the first
lesson in environmental responsibility." Also, he says, "the concept of bal
tashchit (you shall not waste) derived form the Torah, serves as a reminder
to conserve precious resources."
Raising farm animals wastes water and causes pollution and run-off, Lavine
explains, and both the greenhouse effect and global warming - major
environmental concerns - have been attributed to the raising of livestock.
Health issues
An authority on preventative nutrition, Lavine says that after being a vegan
for many years, he has never felt better. Before eschewing meat, he weighed
180 pounds and had a 36-inch waist. Now, he weighs 135 and has a 30-inch
waist. In addition, he never feels aches or pains and has an abundance of
energy.
In recent years, the public has been inundated with evidence that cutting
out meat - especially red meat - from the diet can lead to improved health,
a decreased chance of developing heart disease and cancer among other
ailments, and can prolong life. Of course, there are those who consider meat
to be the best way to receive an adequate amount of protein.
"All of the major causes of death due to cancer are linked to diet," Lavine
says. His Web site explains that Judaism stresses the importance of
maintaining health and not harming oneself.
The Torah commands us to "be most careful," (Deuteronomy 4:15), he says.
"This means that we must do everything possible to guard our health and not
take unnecessary risks."
In addition to meat's proven link to cancer, clogged arteries and other
health-related problems, it can also be a source of poison if it is
contaminated. In recent months, talk of mad cow disease and foot-and-mouth
disease are scaring people from eating meat. Livestock - no matter if it is
intended to eventually enter the kosher market or not - is all fed the same
food and treated the same way, explain Lavine and Schwartz.
"The kosher laws are not designed for health reasons. That's a
misconception
Post by yechidah
people have," Lavine says. "The (laws) do provide some safeguard in that the
lungs of the animal are inspected after slaughter and one looks for evidence
of disease processes." But, he adds, what these animals were fed during
their lives before they entered the kosher system "is anyone's guess."
Levertov, who says it's OK to be concerned with one's own health when
deciding whether or not to eat meat, says no one is expected to "stuff his
face with meat," and doing so is indulgence, anyway. He himself eats red
meat only a few times a year, usually on holidays. And he says he and his
family - although they have considered switching to free-range kosher meat -
are not concerned about contracting an illness from meat.
Additionally, many meat-eaters point out that just because one abstains from
meat doesn't mean he or she will not be subject to food poisoning, as
contamination can occur through produce or other food products.
Kashrut through vegetarianism
During his meat-eating days, Lavine did not abide by kosher laws. After
becoming a vegetarian and especially after choosing to be a vegan, keeping
kosher seemed to be a natural and easy progression, he says.
Not eating meat may mean not keeping two sets of dishes; not having to worry
about waiting to eat dairy after meat or vice versa; and not having to
purchase kosher meat. But Lavine stresses that although it may seem as
though vegetarians are kosher by default, they are not.
"All of us buy processed foods, and processed foods may have ingredients in
them that are not kosher or may have been prepared in vessels in which
non-kosher foods had previously been placed." Therefore, it is important to
look for a hecscher (kosher symbol) on processed foods, he says.
Because it is getting easier to be vegetarian in the United States, Koppell
says she has witnessed Jews who are so overwhelmed at the prospect of
becoming kosher that they become vegetarian to ease the process.
"For many people, vegetarianism is their entr?e into keeping kosher," she
says.
While Levertov favors any reason for Jews to follow the laws of kashrut, he
doesn't see vegetarianism as the magical path by which to do it.
"If (vegetarianism) helps people to be kosher, so be it," he says. "But now
you're just talking about practical reasons."
Whether or not the laws of kashrut figure into people's decisions to become
vegetarian, Jewish tradition may continue to be connected with holiday meals
featuring animal flesh as the main course. Vegetarians say Jews are slowly
opening up to vegetarianism, but as long as society consists mainly of
meat-eaters, the idea may remain avant garde for quite some time.
And though individuals may see what they put on their dinner tables and into
their mouths as personal decisions, Schwartz feels nothing could be further
from the truth.
"Vegetarianism has become a societal imperative today. It's not only an
important individual choice ... but in mathematical terms its necessary."
http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/010427/food.shtml
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yechidah
2003-12-26 21:05:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
Killing for food: Mitzvah or sin?
Jews debate history, ethics of vegetarianism
TAMI BICKLEY
Associate Editor
Jewish vegetarians say slaughtering animals for food is inhumane and goes
against the Torah,
As we have already discussed ad nauseum in this forum, they are absolutely
wrong since the torah clearly permits and encourages us to eat meat. If
someone wishes to be a vegetarian for his own personal reasons, that of
course is his prerogative, but any Jew who asserts that eating animals is
inhumane or goes against the torah is clearly an ignoramus. Richard
Schwartz, who is cited below, is a classic example of such an individual who
understands very little about torah Judaism, yet attempts to hijack the
torah to promote his own personal vegetarian agenda. If being a vegetarian
were inhumane or anti-torah, then there would be large numbers of Orthodox
Jewish vegetarians, which of course there are not. Vegetarianism is almost
unheard of amongst the Orthodox. Even Rav Kook, the big-name rabbi who
believed that we would be vegetarians in the messianic age, ate meat for
shabbos and yom tov. Our sages clearly taught that there can be no joy
without meat and wine. To argue that something which the torah clearly
permits and in some cases mandates is inhumane or sinful is outright
anti-torah, and by definition heretical.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Cindy, we have already substantiated in the past that you're an avid red
meat-eater. I'm sure you will always be able to find some one, somewhere to
support you in your quest to kill cows.

Eat as much meat as you wish. Labriut. Just allow for Jews who choose to
nourish their bodies otherwise to speak freely about their
Halachically-correct dietary preferences.

YS
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
while others argue that eating kosher meat brings us
closer to God.
Imagine a High Holiday meal void of gefilte fish, matzo ball soup and
chicken or a Passover seder plate minus the shank bone. And what would
we
Post by cindys
do
Post by yechidah
without chicken soup, a.k.a. "Jewish penicillin," to cure our bouts with
the
Post by yechidah
flu?
For many Jews, the elimination of animal flesh - especially at Shabbat and
holiday gatherings - may not only seem untraditional, but the very
antithesis of a culture steeped in meat consumption. To Jewish
vegetarians,
Post by yechidah
however, eliminating animal flesh from the diet is not only the healthier
and more humane way to live, but also the Jewish way.
For years a debate has raged between meat-eating Jews and those who shun
meat. And as scientific facts about the benefits of vegetarianism have
emerged in the secular world and awareness of the issue has woven its way
deeper into American society, the discussions regarding what we should and
should not eat have become all the more passionate.
But why is there debate over what would appear to be a highly individual
choice? It begins with the Torah and ends with the environment, with
concern
Post by yechidah
for the welfare of animals falling somewhere in between.
There are basically two main camps concerning whether or not
vegetarianism
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
is preferable in Jewish tradition to eating meat: Those who believe God
instructed us to consume the flesh of kosher animals in order to fulfill a
mitzvah (a commandment from God); and those who believe Jews and non-Jews
alike began life as vegetarians and were intended by God to remain that
way.
Post by yechidah
In the beginning
"God's initial intention was that people be vegetarians," reads the
opening
Post by yechidah
statement in "Judaism and Vegetarianism" by Richard Schwartz (Lantern
Books,
Post by yechidah
$18 paperback). Schwartz adds that "the foremost Jewish commentator,
Rashi
Post by cindys
(
Post by yechidah
1040-1105) says the following about God's first dietary law: 'God did not
permit Adam and his wife to kill a creature and to eat its flesh. Only
every
Post by yechidah
green herb shall they eat together.' "
Dr. Jay Lavine, a former Valley ophthalmologist who now lives in Tucson,
where he practices Jewish medicine - the practice of medicine based upon
Jewish law and medical ethical principles - agrees that the world began
with
Post by yechidah
vegetarianism.
"I think all of the major (Jewish) commentators agree that mankind was
vegetarian in the Garden of Eden," he tells Jewish News. "There is some
controversy ... as to whether at that point mankind was allowed to eat
meat
Post by yechidah
from animals that had died a natural death even though they were not
allowed
Post by yechidah
to slaughter animals."
Up until the flood, people were indeed allowed to eat animals, provided
they
Post by yechidah
themselves didn't kill the animals, points out Rabbi Yossi Levertov of
Chabad of Scottsdale. After the flood, he explains, man was "given the
ability to (elevate the meat)."
Levertov, like a number of Jews - many of whom are Hasidic - believes that
by eating kosher animal flesh, we are helping the animal to achieve a
"spiritual elevation" that the animal cannot achieve on its own.
"If (a shechitah, ritual slaughterer) slaughters an animal according to
(Jewish) law and you make a (blessing) and you (eat it) at a (holiday or
simcha, milestone event), then you are extracting the Godly spark within
it
Post by yechidah
and causing its appropriate elevation to ascend to wherever it's
supposed
Post by cindys
to
Post by yechidah
ascend," he says. "This is the very purpose of why we were in this world.
... We take an energy and ascend it to above and we cause a spiritual
light
Post by yechidah
to come down below. And if you eat something the proper way, even if it's
killing the animal (and) if you're doing it for a mitzvah and in the right
way and you're not eating it for pleasure, then you're elevating the Godly
element that's in there."
Vegetarians such as Lavine and Schwartz not only don't believe in the
so-called "elevation of a Godly spark," but insist that slaughtering an
animal for any reason and in any way, even if that way is considered
kosher,
Post by yechidah
is inhumane and torturous.
"The essence of (the Godly spark theory) is that we could use other living
things such as meat to make ourselves stronger ... and healthier so that
we
Post by yechidah
would be able to study Torah better and live better lives," says Lavine,
an
Post by yechidah
Orthodox Jew. "And that's basically the fly in the ointment because we now
know that eating meat is not necessary to be strong and healthy and is in
fact associated with many chronic ailments.
"People tend to justify and rationalize everything they do, even if that's
not the reason they do it," he continues. "Everyone wants to think of
himself in a good way. Who wants to think of himself as someone who
tortures
Post by yechidah
and abuses animals?"
Schwartz, who is also Orthodox, is a professor at the College of Staten
Island in Staten Island, N.Y., and has been a vegetarian for 22 years. He
points out that kabbalist Rabbi Isaac Luria once said that "only a Torah
scholar can elevate holy sparks trapped in the animal." The problem is
that
Post by yechidah
most Jews are secular today, and even among those who are observant,
only
Post by cindys
a
Post by yechidah
small number can consider themselves "so scholarly and spiritually
advanced
Post by yechidah
to be able to eat meat."
The Torah
Though observant Jewish meat-eaters say they are simply abiding by God's
instructions and fulfilling the mitzvah involved in consuming meat, Jewish
vegetarians point to passages in the Torah that directly say or imply that
we should do the opposite.
"There is no question that the Torah's ideal is vegetarianism and that
eating meat is a concession," says Rabbi Bonnie Koppell of Temple Beth
Sholom in Chandler. "And the Talmud specifically says you should only eat
meat if you have a particular craving for it, and of course it has to be
kosher."
Rabbi Abraham Isaac Hakohen Kook (Rav Kook), a Torah scholar and the first
Ashkenazic chief rabbi of pre-state Israel, believed that "the
permission
Post by cindys
to
Post by yechidah
eat meat was only a temporary concession; he felt that a God who is
merciful
Post by yechidah
to His creatures would not institute an everlasting law permitting the
killing of animals for food."
Schwartz also refers to the time of Noah, in which the Torah states, "When
God saw how corrupt the earth was, for all flesh had corrupted its ways on
earth." (Genesis 6:12)
So, "as a concession to people's weakness," Schwartz writes, "permission
to
Post by yechidah
eat meat was then given." And he quotes Torah, in which God instructs,
"Every creature that lives shall be yours to eat; as with the green
grasses,
Post by yechidah
I give you all these." (Genesis 9:3)
Levertov disagrees that permission to eat meat was granted as a result of
people's desires.
"I've heard vegetarians say, 'God saw that man is evil and he can't help
(eating meat), so he allowed them to eat meat.' That is the most
ridiculous
Post by yechidah
statement that anyone can make - that God is allowing the world to pull
Him
Post by yechidah
by the nose, so to speak," contends Levertov. "There were a lot of (other)
temptations that we struggled with and (God) didn't allow us to get away
with it, so that is not a sound argument."
Levertov says people were given permission to slaughter animals for food
after the flood because they were at that time able to spiritually elevate
animals. Lavine explains through his personal Web site
(members.aol.com/sauromalus/jewishveg.htm) that there are a number of
reasons given as to why Jews were allowed to kill animals for consumption
after the flood - one of which was because following the flood, most of
the
Post by yechidah
earth's vegetation was destroyed and without the full range of grains and
produce, "humans had to supplement their diets with animal products." And
"vegetarian diets ... became associated with poor health" at that time.
But
Post by yechidah
now that meat eating "is associated with poor health," says Lavine, "there
is no reason to eat meat other than for reasons of ta'avah (lust)."
Post by yechidah
What's best for the animal?
Jewish vegetarians are quick to refer to tsa'ar ba'alei chayim mentioned
in
Post by yechidah
the Torah, which means that Judaism forbids animals to suffer unnecessary
pain. While proponents of kosher meat may argue that animals killed in a
kosher way feel little or no pain, vegetarians contend the conditions
under
Post by yechidah
which animals live before they are slaughtered are far from humane.
It was a local article about the beef industry in the late 1980s that
prompted Lavine to eliminate red meat from his diet. Today he is a vegan
(one who does not consume, wear or purchase any animal products or
by-products).
"The article talked about a beef-packing plant in Phoenix and the
conditions
Post by yechidah
within the plant and how cows were often not stunned completely and would
thrash around and injure the workers and suffer a great deal in the
process," Lavine recalls. "I read what went on in slaughterhouses and
...
Post by cindys
it
Post by yechidah
didn't really seem right to be eating meat knowing what was going into the
production of that meat."
Although kosher meat is derived from animals that are killed in a kosher
manner by a shechitah and inspected carefully for diseases, the animals
don't live their lives in special Jewish sections. They are treated no
differently than the masses of animals that will be sold on the non-kosher
market, says Lavine.
As more people become aware of the inhumane conditions in these plants,
they
Post by yechidah
are searching for meat that comes from "free-range animals." These animals
are not caged or force-fed and are allowed to roam the pastures. Some
free-range animals are also considered organic when they have not been
given
Post by yechidah
hormones or antibiotics during their lives.
"I'm sure there is a decreased amount of suffering in the life of an
animal
Post by yechidah
(that's free-range) while it's still alive," says Lavine, noting that a
free-range animal still suffers a painful death.
Furthermore, he says, even though a kosher ritual slaughtering involves a
perfect blade that makes a clean cut through the animal's neck, "I don't
think any thinking individual could think that an animal could have its
throat slit while fully conscious and not be suffering in the process," he
says. "While people talk about kosher slaughter as being humane, these are
individuals who are really suppressing what's going on. And they have an
idea of animals in their own mind as just beings that really don't think
and
Post by yechidah
don't have any true feelings, and that is not scientifically correct."
Levertov's reply to those who are concerned with the feelings of animals
is
Post by yechidah
that "anyone who is worried about the animal has to look in the Torah to
see
Post by yechidah
the facts." Though he agrees that the Torah does explicitly prohibit the
torturing of animals for no reason, he points out that the Torah is also
"filled with the (meat) offerings we had in biblical times," and that "the
same God that says you shouldn't torture animals says you should do
certain
Post by yechidah
things (such as ritual slaughtering) in a very particular way. ... The
discussions with regard to (kashrut) say it's the most humane way of
killing."
Although there is no commandment that one must eat meat on the Sabbath,
Levertov says that the Talmud interprets the Torah's commandment "to
rejoice" on holidays by eating meat and drinking wine. If one does not
like
Post by yechidah
the taste of meat or wine or is concerned about the effects of the two on
one's health, then one can refrain, Levertov says. But when the issue is
about the health of the cow, "then we have to look at it from God's
perspective, not from man's perspective," he says. "Then we are following
(God) and connecting to Him. If we are worried only about how we perceive
it, then we're not believing in God and we're not relating to God. We're
relating to ourselves."
Environmental concerns
Schwartz became a vegetarian when he learned that in the United States, 70
percent of grain is fed to animals in order to produce meat, whereas it
could be better used toward relieving world hunger, he says.
"Judaism has important teachings about taking care of our health,
compassion
Post by yechidah
for animals, conserving the environment, conserving resources and helping
the hungry," he says.
Lavine, through his Web site, notes that mankind was placed in the
Garden
Post by cindys
of
Post by yechidah
Eden to take care of it (Genesis 2:15) and this "can be considered the
first
Post by yechidah
lesson in environmental responsibility." Also, he says, "the concept of
bal
Post by yechidah
tashchit (you shall not waste) derived form the Torah, serves as a
reminder
Post by yechidah
to conserve precious resources."
Raising farm animals wastes water and causes pollution and run-off, Lavine
explains, and both the greenhouse effect and global warming - major
environmental concerns - have been attributed to the raising of livestock.
Health issues
An authority on preventative nutrition, Lavine says that after being a
vegan
Post by yechidah
for many years, he has never felt better. Before eschewing meat, he
weighed
Post by yechidah
180 pounds and had a 36-inch waist. Now, he weighs 135 and has a 30-inch
waist. In addition, he never feels aches or pains and has an abundance of
energy.
In recent years, the public has been inundated with evidence that cutting
out meat - especially red meat - from the diet can lead to improved
health,
Post by yechidah
a decreased chance of developing heart disease and cancer among other
ailments, and can prolong life. Of course, there are those who consider
meat
Post by yechidah
to be the best way to receive an adequate amount of protein.
"All of the major causes of death due to cancer are linked to diet,"
Lavine
Post by yechidah
says. His Web site explains that Judaism stresses the importance of
maintaining health and not harming oneself.
The Torah commands us to "be most careful," (Deuteronomy 4:15), he says.
"This means that we must do everything possible to guard our health and
not
Post by yechidah
take unnecessary risks."
In addition to meat's proven link to cancer, clogged arteries and other
health-related problems, it can also be a source of poison if it is
contaminated. In recent months, talk of mad cow disease and
foot-and-mouth
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
disease are scaring people from eating meat. Livestock - no matter if it
is
Post by yechidah
intended to eventually enter the kosher market or not - is all fed the
same
Post by yechidah
food and treated the same way, explain Lavine and Schwartz.
"The kosher laws are not designed for health reasons. That's a
misconception
Post by yechidah
people have," Lavine says. "The (laws) do provide some safeguard in that
the
Post by yechidah
lungs of the animal are inspected after slaughter and one looks for
evidence
Post by yechidah
of disease processes." But, he adds, what these animals were fed during
their lives before they entered the kosher system "is anyone's guess."
Levertov, who says it's OK to be concerned with one's own health when
deciding whether or not to eat meat, says no one is expected to "stuff his
face with meat," and doing so is indulgence, anyway. He himself eats red
meat only a few times a year, usually on holidays. And he says he and his
family - although they have considered switching to free-range kosher
meat -
Post by yechidah
are not concerned about contracting an illness from meat.
Additionally, many meat-eaters point out that just because one abstains
from
Post by yechidah
meat doesn't mean he or she will not be subject to food poisoning, as
contamination can occur through produce or other food products.
Kashrut through vegetarianism
During his meat-eating days, Lavine did not abide by kosher laws. After
becoming a vegetarian and especially after choosing to be a vegan, keeping
kosher seemed to be a natural and easy progression, he says.
Not eating meat may mean not keeping two sets of dishes; not having to
worry
Post by yechidah
about waiting to eat dairy after meat or vice versa; and not having to
purchase kosher meat. But Lavine stresses that although it may seem as
though vegetarians are kosher by default, they are not.
"All of us buy processed foods, and processed foods may have ingredients
in
Post by yechidah
them that are not kosher or may have been prepared in vessels in which
non-kosher foods had previously been placed." Therefore, it is important
to
Post by yechidah
look for a hecscher (kosher symbol) on processed foods, he says.
Because it is getting easier to be vegetarian in the United States,
Koppell
Post by yechidah
says she has witnessed Jews who are so overwhelmed at the prospect of
becoming kosher that they become vegetarian to ease the process.
"For many people, vegetarianism is their entr?e into keeping kosher," she
says.
While Levertov favors any reason for Jews to follow the laws of kashrut,
he
Post by yechidah
doesn't see vegetarianism as the magical path by which to do it.
"If (vegetarianism) helps people to be kosher, so be it," he says. "But
now
Post by yechidah
you're just talking about practical reasons."
Whether or not the laws of kashrut figure into people's decisions to
become
Post by yechidah
vegetarian, Jewish tradition may continue to be connected with holiday
meals
Post by yechidah
featuring animal flesh as the main course. Vegetarians say Jews are slowly
opening up to vegetarianism, but as long as society consists mainly of
meat-eaters, the idea may remain avant garde for quite some time.
And though individuals may see what they put on their dinner tables and
into
Post by yechidah
their mouths as personal decisions, Schwartz feels nothing could be
further
Post by yechidah
from the truth.
"Vegetarianism has become a societal imperative today. It's not only an
important individual choice ... but in mathematical terms its necessary."
http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/010427/food.shtml
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Mickey
2003-12-26 21:18:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
Killing for food: Mitzvah or sin?
Jews debate history, ethics of vegetarianism
TAMI BICKLEY
Associate Editor
Jewish vegetarians say slaughtering animals for food is inhumane and
goes
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
against the Torah,
As we have already discussed ad nauseum in this forum, they are absolutely
wrong since the torah clearly permits and encourages us to eat meat.
If
Post by cindys
someone wishes to be a vegetarian for his own personal reasons, that of
course is his prerogative, but any Jew who asserts that eating animals is
inhumane or goes against the torah is clearly an ignoramus. Richard
Schwartz, who is cited below, is a classic example of such an individual
who
Post by cindys
understands very little about torah Judaism, yet attempts to hijack the
torah to promote his own personal vegetarian agenda. If being a vegetarian
were inhumane or anti-torah, then there would be large numbers of Orthodox
Jewish vegetarians, which of course there are not. Vegetarianism is almost
unheard of amongst the Orthodox. Even Rav Kook, the big-name rabbi who
believed that we would be vegetarians in the messianic age, ate meat for
shabbos and yom tov. Our sages clearly taught that there can be no joy
without meat and wine. To argue that something which the torah clearly
permits and in some cases mandates is inhumane or sinful is outright
anti-torah, and by definition heretical.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Cindy, we have already substantiated in the past that you're an avid red
meat-eater. I'm sure you will always be able to find some one, somewhere to
support you in your quest to kill cows.
Yeah, she could have found say my dad, the orthodox rabbi, who liked beef
and loved lamb. I'm sure you know more than he did though.

Mickey
Binyamin Dissen
2003-12-27 18:58:38 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 21:05:09 GMT "yechidah" <***@hotmail.com>
wrote:

:>Cindy, we have already substantiated in the past that you're an avid red
:>meat-eater. I'm sure you will always be able to find some one, somewhere to
:>support you in your quest to kill cows.

Why did you feel the need to make a personal attack?

:>Eat as much meat as you wish. Labriut. Just allow for Jews who choose to
:>nourish their bodies otherwise to speak freely about their
:>Halachically-correct dietary preferences.

So it is your belief that when the Moshiach comes and the Pesach is restored,
that it will be "Halachically-correct" to not eat of it?

What are the sources for this unusual "psak"?

--
Binyamin Dissen <***@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
yechidah
2003-12-28 00:17:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Binyamin Dissen
:>Cindy, we have already substantiated in the past that you're an avid red
:>meat-eater. I'm sure you will always be able to find some one, somewhere to
:>support you in your quest to kill cows.
Why did you feel the need to make a personal attack?
You're absolutely right. Cindy, I do apologize for this.
Post by Binyamin Dissen
:>Eat as much meat as you wish. Labriut. Just allow for Jews who choose to
:>nourish their bodies otherwise to speak freely about their
:>Halachically-correct dietary preferences.
So it is your belief that when the Moshiach comes and the Pesach is restored,
that it will be "Halachically-correct" to not eat of it?
Hashem wants us to CARE for our bodies. Not to poison them. At one time
sheep and cows grazed in peace in the meadows and shepherds tended to them
lovingly like a father to his children. For this reason all of our leaders
were chosen. From Moses, to Abraham, to Isaac, to Jacob to David.

Now the situation is much different. Animals are packed together in pens,
mothers separated from calves, males castrated, animals artificially
seminated, force-fed, bruised, abused, fed hormone-laden, pesticide sprayed
feed when they're not being fed other pulverized animals. Add to this the
anguish, distress, anxiety-state of being prodded, whipped and butchered
while hearing the screams of their brethren being slaughtered, knowing that
they are next in line, makes for toxic waste within the human body. Do you
think Hashem is HAPPY with the way things are? Do you not think that this
situation must end and that Mad Cow is an indicator that at long last, the
heinous butcherings are griding to a full stop? What is with you any way?
How can you POSSIBLY condone the way these animals are treated? How quickly
you forget how it was for us to be locked up in CATTLE CARS for days on end,
without water, food or air! Or maybe you think perhaps that the meat and
the screaming cow it once was have no connection?

And if you say - well, the Jewish way of slaughtering is humane. This HAS
zilch to do with how these animals are treated before. As the article says -
and I stand behind this 100% - they are NOT cared for in a Jewish way from
the time of their inception to the time of their slaughter, unless - (and
here the odds fall in somewhere between 0-0.2%) the farm is Orthodox Jewish,
organic and animal-friendly.

YS



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cindys
2003-12-28 00:50:16 UTC
Permalink
Unfortunately, my newsreader did not pick up the post that you are
responding to, so that is why I am responding here.
Post by Binyamin Dissen
:>Cindy, we have already substantiated in the past that you're an avid red
:>meat-eater. I'm sure you will always be able to find some one, somewhere to
:>support you in your quest to kill cows.
Yes, of course. The entire Orthodox Jewish community, including the entire
Lubavitcher community.
Post by Binyamin Dissen
Why did you feel the need to make a personal attack?
:>Eat as much meat as you wish. Labriut. Just allow for Jews who choose to
:>nourish their bodies otherwise to speak freely about their
:>Halachically-correct dietary preferences.
I don't have an issue with anyone speaking about his/her personal choice to
eat vegetarian, *his/her personal choice* being the operative expression.
But that is not what this thread is about. The author of the cut and paste
is twisting the torah to pretend that eating meat is anti-torah and that
vegetarianism is mandated by the torah. Nothing could be further from the
truth. I take great issue with ignorami who twist the torah to promote their
own personal agendae. It is a lie to claim that the torah mandates
vegetarianism or that the torah considers the slaughter of animals for food
to be inhumane or unethical. The torah clearly permits and encourages the
consumption of meat. To claim that eating meat is unethical equates to
saying that the torah is unethical. Along with other Orthodox Jews, I find
this position exceedingly offensive. Chabad Lubavitch is amongst the
Orthodox Jews who find this position offensive, and so stated in an article
about vegetarianism they once published in one of their newsletters.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Post by Binyamin Dissen
So it is your belief that when the Moshiach comes and the Pesach is restored,
that it will be "Halachically-correct" to not eat of it?
What are the sources for this unusual "psak"?
--
http://www.dissensoftware.com
yechidah
2003-12-28 01:24:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by cindys
Unfortunately, my newsreader did not pick up the post that you are
responding to, so that is why I am responding here.
Post by Binyamin Dissen
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 21:05:09 GMT "yechidah"
:>Cindy, we have already substantiated in the past that you're an avid red
:>meat-eater. I'm sure you will always be able to find some one,
somewhere
Post by cindys
to
Post by Binyamin Dissen
:>support you in your quest to kill cows.
Yes, of course. The entire Orthodox Jewish community, including the entire
Lubavitcher community.
Post by Binyamin Dissen
Why did you feel the need to make a personal attack?
:>Eat as much meat as you wish. Labriut. Just allow for Jews who choose to
:>nourish their bodies otherwise to speak freely about their
:>Halachically-correct dietary preferences.
I don't have an issue with anyone speaking about his/her personal choice to
eat vegetarian, *his/her personal choice* being the operative expression.
But that is not what this thread is about. The author of the cut and paste
is twisting the torah to pretend that eating meat is anti-torah and that
vegetarianism is mandated by the torah.
Cruelty to animals is anti-torah.

<snip>


YS


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cindys
2003-12-28 01:34:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Unfortunately, my newsreader did not pick up the post that you are
responding to, so that is why I am responding here.
Post by Binyamin Dissen
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 21:05:09 GMT "yechidah"
:>Cindy, we have already substantiated in the past that you're an avid
red
Post by cindys
Post by Binyamin Dissen
:>meat-eater. I'm sure you will always be able to find some one,
somewhere
Post by cindys
to
Post by Binyamin Dissen
:>support you in your quest to kill cows.
Yes, of course. The entire Orthodox Jewish community, including the entire
Lubavitcher community.
Post by Binyamin Dissen
Why did you feel the need to make a personal attack?
:>Eat as much meat as you wish. Labriut. Just allow for Jews who
choose
Post by yechidah
to
Post by cindys
Post by Binyamin Dissen
:>nourish their bodies otherwise to speak freely about their
:>Halachically-correct dietary preferences.
I don't have an issue with anyone speaking about his/her personal choice
to
Post by cindys
eat vegetarian, *his/her personal choice* being the operative expression.
But that is not what this thread is about. The author of the cut and paste
is twisting the torah to pretend that eating meat is anti-torah and that
vegetarianism is mandated by the torah.
Cruelty to animals is anti-torah.
----------------------
Not true. It is anti-torah to cause animals *unnecessary suffering.* The
torah clearly permits and in some cases mandates eating meat, so
slaughtering animals for food clearly does not qualify as *unnecessary
suffering.* If it did, the torah would be contradicting itself.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
yechidah
2003-12-28 01:46:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Unfortunately, my newsreader did not pick up the post that you are
responding to, so that is why I am responding here.
Post by Binyamin Dissen
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 21:05:09 GMT "yechidah"
:>Cindy, we have already substantiated in the past that you're an avid
red
Post by cindys
Post by Binyamin Dissen
:>meat-eater. I'm sure you will always be able to find some one,
somewhere
Post by cindys
to
Post by Binyamin Dissen
:>support you in your quest to kill cows.
Yes, of course. The entire Orthodox Jewish community, including the
entire
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Lubavitcher community.
Post by Binyamin Dissen
Why did you feel the need to make a personal attack?
:>Eat as much meat as you wish. Labriut. Just allow for Jews who
choose
Post by yechidah
to
Post by cindys
Post by Binyamin Dissen
:>nourish their bodies otherwise to speak freely about their
:>Halachically-correct dietary preferences.
I don't have an issue with anyone speaking about his/her personal choice
to
Post by cindys
eat vegetarian, *his/her personal choice* being the operative
expression.
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
But that is not what this thread is about. The author of the cut and
paste
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
is twisting the torah to pretend that eating meat is anti-torah and that
vegetarianism is mandated by the torah.
Cruelty to animals is anti-torah.
----------------------
Not true. It is anti-torah to cause animals *unnecessary suffering.*
Who can measure what it is for an animal to suffer? You? Anyone? Unless you
have your feet chopped off while you're still conscious or have a child
ripped from you while you are nursing it, only to hear its screams in the
distance, you have no idea. You can pretend you know, but you still haven't
a clue.


YS


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cindys
2003-12-28 03:42:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
Cruelty to animals is anti-torah.
----------------------
Not true. It is anti-torah to cause animals *unnecessary suffering.*
Who can measure what it is for an animal to suffer? You? Anyone? Unless you
have your feet chopped off while you're still conscious or have a child
ripped from you while you are nursing it, only to hear its screams in the
distance, you have no idea. You can pretend you know, but you still haven't
a clue.
----------------
Nor do you. But all of this is moot, as we are not permitted to eat an
animal that had its feet chopped off while it was alive, and ripping nursing
children away from their mothers is totally irrelevant to this thread, which
is about people eating animals.

There is nothing wrong with someone choosing to be a vegetarian for his own
personal reasons, whatever those may be. The problem is when someone starts
claiming that he is a vegetarian *because the torah mandates it* or because
*the torah teaches that eating meat is unethical or inhumane.* The reality
is that the torah clearly permits and in some cases mandates the consumption
of animals for food. Anyone who says otherwise is either an ignoramus or a
deliberate liar.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
yechidah
2003-12-28 04:00:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
Cruelty to animals is anti-torah.
----------------------
Not true. It is anti-torah to cause animals *unnecessary suffering.*
Who can measure what it is for an animal to suffer? You? Anyone? Unless
you
Post by yechidah
have your feet chopped off while you're still conscious or have a child
ripped from you while you are nursing it, only to hear its screams in the
distance, you have no idea. You can pretend you know, but you still
haven't
Post by yechidah
a clue.
----------------
Nor do you.
No. I think where I study Kabbalah and you don't is where we part in our
ways.


But all of this is moot, as we are not permitted to eat an
Post by yechidah
animal that had its feet chopped off while it was alive, and ripping nursing
children away from their mothers is totally irrelevant to this thread,
~Totally~ relevant. In order to each your cholent a mother, father or child
animal had to die.

which
Post by yechidah
is about people eating animals.
Which is about people caring about the animals they eat, not being merely
animals consuming other animals.
Post by yechidah
There is nothing wrong with someone choosing to be a vegetarian for his own
personal reasons, whatever those may be.
There is everything right with it. It's those that eat BHT hormone-laden
meat of an animal given other animals to feed on, living in grief and terror
on steroids which are imprinted within the cells of the flesh and then
becoming part of the person eating it, manifesting as cancers later on (chas
ve-chalilah) - that's wrong.

The problem is when someone starts
Post by yechidah
claiming that he is a vegetarian *because the torah mandates it* or because
*the torah teaches that eating meat is unethical or inhumane.*
No. That's your own problem. Hashem wants us to treat our bodies like holy
temples. For that is what they are to the soul. Polluting a temple with
harmful poisons and impurities is nothing less than a defilement. Torah
mandates us to bless our food - in planting, harvest, reaping, tithing and
eating it. We are commanded to give thanks to Hashem for all the good foods
He has given us. We are NO WHERE COMMANDED to eat flesh.


The reality
Post by yechidah
is that the torah clearly permits and in some cases mandates the consumption
of animals for food. Anyone who says otherwise is either an ignoramus or a
deliberate liar.
Well, you're pretty much bordering on lashon hara and have been for a while
now. In eating toxins, they have uglified your speech. Perhaps there is
truth to *you are what you eat* after all.

YS
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cindys
2003-12-28 04:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
Cruelty to animals is anti-torah.
----------------------
Not true. It is anti-torah to cause animals *unnecessary suffering.*
Who can measure what it is for an animal to suffer? You? Anyone? Unless
you
Post by yechidah
have your feet chopped off while you're still conscious or have a child
ripped from you while you are nursing it, only to hear its screams in
the
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
distance, you have no idea. You can pretend you know, but you still
haven't
Post by yechidah
a clue.
----------------
Nor do you.
No. I think where I study Kabbalah and you don't is where we part in our
ways.
And does the *kabbalah* teach people to say that that which the torah
clearly permits is unethical and inhumane?
Post by yechidah
But all of this is moot, as we are not permitted to eat an
Post by yechidah
animal that had its feet chopped off while it was alive, and ripping
nursing
Post by yechidah
children away from their mothers is totally irrelevant to this thread,
~Totally~ relevant. In order to eat your cholent a mother, father or child
animal had to die.
Which is the problem right there. The torah makes a distinction between
humans and animals.
Post by yechidah
which
Post by yechidah
is about people eating animals.
Which is about people caring about the animals they eat, not being merely
animals consuming other animals.
Post by yechidah
There is nothing wrong with someone choosing to be a vegetarian for his
own
Post by yechidah
personal reasons, whatever those may be.
There is everything right with it. It's those that eat BHT hormone-laden
And that's fine, but BHT is totally irrelevant to the fact that the torah
explicitly grants us permission and in some cases mandates that we consume
meat. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with a person doing what the
torah permits and/or mandates.
Post by yechidah
meat of an animal given other animals to feed on, living in grief and terror
on steroids which are imprinted within the cells of the flesh and then
becoming part of the person eating it, manifesting as cancers later on (chas
ve-chalilah) - that's wrong.
The problem is when someone starts
Post by yechidah
claiming that he is a vegetarian *because the torah mandates it* or
because
Post by yechidah
*the torah teaches that eating meat is unethical or inhumane.*
No. That's your own problem.
No, it's yours because you are attempting to pass off your own personal
opinions as being supported by the torah, when in fact they are totally at
odds with the torah itself, the interpretations of our sages, every
Orthodox rabbi, and the entire torah-observant world.
Post by yechidah
Hashem wants us to treat our bodies like holy
temples. For that is what they are to the soul. Polluting a temple with
harmful poisons and impurities is nothing less than a defilement. Torah
mandates us to bless our food - in planting, harvest, reaping, tithing and
eating it. We are commanded to give thanks to Hashem for all the good foods
He has given us. We are NO WHERE COMMANDED to eat flesh.
The reality
Post by yechidah
is that the torah clearly permits and in some cases mandates the
consumption
Post by yechidah
of animals for food. Anyone who says otherwise is either an ignoramus or a
deliberate liar.
Well, you're pretty much bordering on lashon hara and have been for a while
now.
Of course I haven't. I have simply stated a fact. The torah clearly does
permit the consumption of meat, and it is not lashon hara to state that a
Jew who claims that eating meat is unethical is either ignorant or lying.
According to the laws of lashon hara, it is meritorious to expose heresy,
and I suspect that calling the laws of the torah "unethical and inhumane"
would certainly qualify as heretical statements.
Post by yechidah
In eating toxins, they have uglified your speech. Perhaps there is
truth to *you are what you eat* after all.
Let's see now. I have not attacked you personally at all, although I admit I
have disputed your ideas. You, on the other hand, have attacked me
personally twice in this thread.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
yechidah
2003-12-28 17:31:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
Cruelty to animals is anti-torah.
----------------------
Not true. It is anti-torah to cause animals *unnecessary suffering.*
Who can measure what it is for an animal to suffer? You? Anyone?
Unless
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
you
Post by yechidah
have your feet chopped off while you're still conscious or have a
child
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
ripped from you while you are nursing it, only to hear its screams in
the
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
distance, you have no idea. You can pretend you know, but you still
haven't
Post by yechidah
a clue.
----------------
Nor do you.
No. I think where I study Kabbalah and you don't is where we part in our
ways.
And does the *kabbalah* teach people to say that that which the torah
clearly permits is unethical and inhumane?
The Torah mandates eating meat should the soul desire. Kabbalah teaches to
use desire to cleave to the Creator, to see the One-ness in all of creation,
to be One with the Creator, raising sparks of holiness within all of
creation. How can I fail to see this in the creatures which were put here on
the earth before even man was? There is something to be said about having
dominion over creation, there is also something to be said about abusing
that priviledge. "Baall Tashchit" (Devorim 20:19)
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
But all of this is moot, as we are not permitted to eat an
Post by yechidah
animal that had its feet chopped off while it was alive, and ripping
nursing
Post by yechidah
children away from their mothers is totally irrelevant to this thread,
~Totally~ relevant. In order to eat your cholent a mother, father or child
animal had to die.
Which is the problem right there. The torah makes a distinction between
humans and animals.
"Animals are similar to man in the structure of the body, with its aspects
and capabilities; the material of their bodies is flesh and blood, sinews,
bones and skin, and they possess a life-force. They possess senses like man,
they sustain themselves like man, they are of two genders, male and female,
but the difference of man from animals involves intelligence and language"
(Emunah U'bitachon 1:7).

Animals are parents and children. They mate, they procreate, they gestate,
they birth, they clean, they teach, they nurture, they protect, they emote.
They differ in the soul level. They live at the nefesh level, while we
possess a G-dly soul.
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
which
Post by yechidah
is about people eating animals.
Which is about people caring about the animals they eat, not being merely
animals consuming other animals.
Post by yechidah
There is nothing wrong with someone choosing to be a vegetarian for his
own
Post by yechidah
personal reasons, whatever those may be.
There is everything right with it. It's those that eat BHT hormone-laden
And that's fine,
BHT isn't fine. Why would you say its?


but BHT is totally irrelevant to the fact that the torah
Post by yechidah
explicitly grants us permission and in some cases mandates that we consume
meat.
"All animals which live shall be for you to eat. Like the vegetables, I have
given them to you - all of them." (Beraishis 9:3). Both are available to us.
Hashem is giving us CHOICES.


And there is absolutely nothing wrong with a person doing what the
Post by yechidah
torah permits and/or mandates.
There is something incredibly wrong in cruelty which is anti-Torah leshma.
There is also something to be said about slaughtering - not for holy
purposes - i.e. not for serving Hashem, but for gratification of one's own
lusts and cravings - i.e. taavah. That, I believe is akin to murder as in
this passage:

"Any man from the House of Israel who slaughters an ox, sheep, or goat (who
are sanctified and designated to be slaughtered in the Tabernacle - Rashi)
in the camp, or outside the camp and does not bring the animal to the
opening of the Tent of Meeting (Tabernacle) to be sacrificed for God, before
the Tabernacle of God - it is considered as blood for that man, he has
spilled blood." (Vayikra 17:3-4).
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
meat of an animal given other animals to feed on, living in grief and
terror
Post by yechidah
on steroids which are imprinted within the cells of the flesh and then
becoming part of the person eating it, manifesting as cancers later on
(chas
Post by yechidah
ve-chalilah) - that's wrong.
The problem is when someone starts
Post by yechidah
claiming that he is a vegetarian *because the torah mandates it* or
because
Post by yechidah
*the torah teaches that eating meat is unethical or inhumane.*
I agree. The reasons, if any, need to be purely based on what Hashem wishes
for His creatures.
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
No. That's your own problem.
No, it's yours because you are attempting to pass off your own personal
opinions as being supported by the torah,
Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as
the green herb have I given you all things. is this CHOK?

When the LORD thy God shall enlarge thy border, as He hath promised thee,
and thou shalt say: 'I will eat flesh', because thy soul desireth to eat
flesh; thou MAYEST eat flesh, after all the desire of thy soul." (Dvarim 20)
is this CHOK?

"Only thy holy things which thou hast, and thy vows, thou shalt take, and go
unto the place which the LORD shall choose; " (Dvarim 26) is this CHOK?



when in fact they are totally at
Post by yechidah
odds with the torah itself, the interpretations of our sages, every
Orthodox rabbi, and the entire torah-observant world.
Ramban (Devorim 22:6) writes that all Mitzvot that involve our acting with
compassion toward animals exist in order that we don't train ourselves to
become cruel-hearted. We show mercy to animals not because the animals
deserve the mercy with their 'rights'. Rather, since animals do share
certain physiological similarities with us, it would be detrimental
subconsciously to our personalities, if we were to act with cruelty toward
them.
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Hashem wants us to treat our bodies like holy
temples. For that is what they are to the soul. Polluting a temple with
harmful poisons and impurities is nothing less than a defilement. Torah
mandates us to bless our food - in planting, harvest, reaping, tithing and
eating it. We are commanded to give thanks to Hashem for all the good
foods
Post by yechidah
He has given us. We are NO WHERE COMMANDED to eat flesh.
The reality
Post by yechidah
is that the torah clearly permits and in some cases mandates the
consumption
Post by yechidah
of animals for food. Anyone who says otherwise is either an ignoramus
or
Post by yechidah
a
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
deliberate liar.
Well, you're pretty much bordering on lashon hara and have been for a
while
Post by yechidah
now.
Of course I haven't. I have simply stated a fact.
Here's another fact:

One who speaks Lashon Hara against a Talmid Chacham diminishes the honor of
the Torah and its scholars. He is called "disparager of a Talmid Chacham,"
and the Sages tell us that there is no repair for what he inflicts.

The torah clearly does
Post by yechidah
permit the consumption of meat, and it is not lashon hara to state that a
Jew who claims that eating meat is unethical
"When the LORD thy God shall enlarge thy border, as He hath promised thee,
and thou shalt say: 'I will eat flesh', because thy soul desireth to eat
flesh; thou MAYEST eat flesh, after all the DESIRE of thy soul.

After Hashem enlargens our borders. Should your SOUL desire to eat flesh. Is
this CHOK or is this MISHPAT?


is either ignorant or lying.
Post by yechidah
According to the laws of lashon hara, it is meritorious to expose heresy,
and I suspect that calling the laws of the torah "unethical and inhumane"
would certainly qualify as heretical statements.
Post by yechidah
In eating toxins, they have uglified your speech. Perhaps there is
truth to *you are what you eat* after all.
Let's see now. I have not attacked you personally at all, although I admit I
have disputed your ideas. You, on the other hand, have attacked me
personally twice in this thread.
If I have offended a Bat Yisrael, may she please forgive me.

YS





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Mickey
2003-12-28 18:31:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
"Animals are similar to man in the structure of the body, with its aspects
and capabilities; the material of their bodies is flesh and blood, sinews,
bones and skin, and they possess a life-force. They possess senses like man,
they sustain themselves like man, they are of two genders, male and female,
but the difference of man from animals involves intelligence and language"
(Emunah U'bitachon 1:7).
Animals are parents and children. They mate, they procreate, they gestate,
they birth, they clean, they teach, they nurture, they protect, they emote.
They differ in the soul level. They live at the nefesh level, while we
possess a G-dly soul.
And they're tasty as well.

Mickey
unknown
2003-12-28 20:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Animals are parents and children. They mate, they procreate, they gestate,
they birth, they clean, they teach, they nurture, they protect, they emote.
They differ in the soul level. They live at the nefesh level, while we
possess a G-dly soul.
Says who? You couldn't tell it by simply looking around you.

Gen 6:3 And Jehovah said, My Spirit shall not always plead with MAN;
FOR HE INDEED IS FLESH; but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.


The origins of man are of the carnal planes. The planes of the
physical senses. It is the *spirit* that was breathed into us by G-d
that seperates us from the rest of creation. If you understand otherwise
please suggest something.

bd4u
cindys
2003-12-28 23:20:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
There is nothing wrong with someone choosing to be a vegetarian for
his
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
own
Post by cindys
personal reasons, whatever those may be.
There is everything right with it. It's those that eat BHT
hormone-laden
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
And that's fine,
BHT isn't fine. Why would you say its?
That wasn't what I meant. I meant it was fine for someone to take issue with
BHT but that the subject of BHT is not relevant to the issue of the
permissibility of slaughtering animals for food. As I clearly state in the
Post by yechidah
but BHT is totally irrelevant to the fact that the torah
Post by cindys
explicitly grants us permission and in some cases mandates that we consume
meat.
"All animals which live shall be for you to eat. Like the vegetables, I have
given them to you - all of them." (Beraishis 9:3). Both are available to us.
Hashem is giving us CHOICES.
And there is absolutely nothing wrong with a person doing what the
Post by cindys
torah permits and/or mandates.
There is something incredibly wrong in cruelty which is anti-Torah leshma.
Except the torah does not regard slaughtering animals for food to be
*cruelty.*
Post by yechidah
There is also something to be said about slaughtering - not for holy
purposes - i.e. not for serving Hashem, but for gratification of one's own
lusts and cravings - i.e. taavah. That, I believe is akin to murder as in
Then you believe wrong. There is no such thing as *murder* with respect to
animals. The torah clearly distinguishes between humans and animals.
Post by yechidah
"Any man from the House of Israel who slaughters an ox, sheep, or goat (who
are sanctified and designated to be slaughtered in the Tabernacle - Rashi)
in the camp, or outside the camp and does not bring the animal to the
opening of the Tent of Meeting (Tabernacle) to be sacrificed for God, before
the Tabernacle of God - it is considered as blood for that man, he has
spilled blood." (Vayikra 17:3-4).
During the 40 years of the wandering in the desert, the B'nei Yisrael were
not allowed to eat any meat that had been slaughtered outside the camp and
had not first been offered as a sacrifice. For someone who violated this
rule, the punishment was kares (being cut off from the people), which was
similar to the punishment for murdering a person (i.e. the death penalty).
The only connection between murdering a person and eating an animal without
first offering it for a sacrifice is that both carried similar penalties.
This is according to Mizrachi as well as the Sifsei Chachamim. There are
many other sins outlined in the torah which also carry the penalty of kares.
Another example would be ruling on a point of halacha in the presence of
one's teacher (Shmuel HaNavi was guilty of this and perished at age 51 as a
result). Another example would be a person who had committed murder but was
not punished by a human court because of a technicality. The heavenly court
would take over, and the person would suffer divine retribution. The only
connection is the penalty. The torah never implies that slaughtering an
animal is "murder." To equate the slaughter of an animal to the murder of a
person is well outside the boundaries of Jewish thought.
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
meat of an animal given other animals to feed on, living in grief and
terror
Post by yechidah
on steroids which are imprinted within the cells of the flesh and then
becoming part of the person eating it, manifesting as cancers later on
(chas
Post by yechidah
ve-chalilah) - that's wrong.
The problem is when someone starts
Post by cindys
claiming that he is a vegetarian *because the torah mandates it* or
because
Post by cindys
*the torah teaches that eating meat is unethical or inhumane.*
I agree. The reasons, if any, need to be purely based on what Hashem wishes
for His creatures.
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
No. That's your own problem.
No, it's yours because you are attempting to pass off your own personal
opinions as being supported by the torah,
Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as
the green herb have I given you all things. is this CHOK?
A chok? This is where God gives us permission to eat meat. Are you unable to
understand the pasuk?
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
When the LORD thy God shall enlarge thy border, as He hath promised thee,
and thou shalt say: 'I will eat flesh', because thy soul desireth to eat
flesh; thou MAYEST eat flesh, after all the desire of thy soul." (Dvarim 20)
is this CHOK?
And here again God grants us permission to eat meat.
Post by yechidah
"Only thy holy things which thou hast, and thy vows, thou shalt take, and go
unto the place which the LORD shall choose; " (Dvarim 26) is this CHOK?
I don't see anything in Devarim 26 which comes close to resembling this
citation.
Post by yechidah
when in fact they are totally at
Post by cindys
odds with the torah itself, the interpretations of our sages, every
Orthodox rabbi, and the entire torah-observant world.
Ramban (Devorim 22:6) writes that all Mitzvot that involve our acting with
compassion toward animals exist in order that we don't train ourselves to
become cruel-hearted. We show mercy to animals not because the animals
deserve the mercy with their 'rights'. Rather, since animals do share
certain physiological similarities with us, it would be detrimental
subconsciously to our personalities, if we were to act with cruelty toward
them.
And where does the Ramban state that it is unethical, cruel, or anti-torah
to eat meat?
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
Hashem wants us to treat our bodies like holy
temples. For that is what they are to the soul. Polluting a temple with
harmful poisons and impurities is nothing less than a defilement. Torah
mandates us to bless our food - in planting, harvest, reaping, tithing
and
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
eating it. We are commanded to give thanks to Hashem for all the good
foods
Post by yechidah
He has given us. We are NO WHERE COMMANDED to eat flesh.
The reality
Post by cindys
is that the torah clearly permits and in some cases mandates the
consumption
Post by cindys
of animals for food. Anyone who says otherwise is either an ignoramus
or
Post by cindys
a
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
deliberate liar.
Well, you're pretty much bordering on lashon hara and have been for a
while
Post by yechidah
now.
Of course I haven't. I have simply stated a fact.
One who speaks Lashon Hara against a Talmid Chacham diminishes the honor of
the Torah and its scholars. He is called "disparager of a Talmid Chacham,"
and the Sages tell us that there is no repair for what he inflicts.
Well since I haven't spoken lashon hara against a talmid chachim, I see no
problem.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
yechidah
2003-12-29 17:13:03 UTC
Permalink
Public Service For Ketzaleh, Tzur and Mrs. Melamed
18:30 Dec 29, '03 / 4 Tevet 5764


Justice Yoram Noam of the Jerusalem Magistrates Court handed down this
afternoon the sentences of the ten Arutz-7 directors, broadcasters, and
employees who were convicted of operating an illegal radio station. Four
defendants will perform community service for 3-6 months each. The ten
defendants were also fined between 20,000 and 50,000 shekels each, in
addition to the fine imposed on Arutz-7 to the tune of 450,000 shekels. The
judge noted that the fines and/or community service can be served in the
form of prison sentences.

Yaakov Katz, known as Ketzaleh - indefatigable Executive-Director of Arutz-7
and Beit El Yeshiva Center Institutions, wounded as an IDF officer during
the Yom Kippur War and bound to a wheelchair for months afterwards, a
founding member of the community of Beit El - was sentenced to a six-month
term, commutable to public service, as well as a fine of 50,000 shekels and
a suspended sentence of six months. On his way out of the courtroom,
Ketzaleh said, "All my life I have been doing public service work. Neither
would I have been afraid of actual jail time; I would have been able to
study Torah there. The most important thing is the preservation of freedom
of speech." He said that Arutz-7 would appeal the "unprecedentedly stiff
fines," and the State Prosecution, as well, has said it will appeal.

Arutz-7 Directors Mrs. Shulamit Melamed and Yoel Tzur, and engineer Ya'ir
Meir, were each sentenced to three months in prison, also executable in the
form of public service. They were fined between 25,000 - 30,000 shekels
each.

The seven other defendants were sentenced to pay fines and/or serve
suspended sentences. They are:
Rabbi Zalman Baruch Melamed, Rabbi of Beit El since its inception in 1977,
Dean of Yeshivat Beit El and Beit El Yeshiva Center Institutions, leading
member of the Yesha Council of Rabbis, and co-founder of Arutz-7;
Haggai Segal, Arutz-7 News Director;
Gidi Sharon, veteran music broadcaster;
David Shapira, broadcaster and director of Arutz-7's French department;
Adir Zik, veteran fiery nationalist broadcaster;
Sha'ul Avni, captain of Arutz-7's Eretz HaTzvi ship.

The three broadcasters received four-month suspended sentences, as well as
fines of 20,000 shekels each. Rabbi Melamed received the same sentence,
though his fine was for 25,000 shekels. News Director Haggai Segal was
sentenced to a six-month suspended term and a fine of 30,000 shekels. The
ship's captain Sha'ul Avni was sentenced to a three-month suspended term and
a fine of 20,000 shekels.

Justice Arnon noted today that he took into account the fact that as soon as
the conviction was handed down, Arutz-7 ceased its broadcasts and sold the
ship from which the broadcasts emanated. He further said that Arutz-7
consistently paid royalties, and noted that there was no proof that Arutz-7
ever interfered with air-traffic communications. "The fact that the
government did not enforce the law against the station over the course of
many years," he stated, "gave its operators the impression that their sin
was not grave - especially when important public figures, including MKs and
ministers, were interviewed on the station."

Some 3,000 fans of Arutz-7, including several Knesset Members organized by
MK Uri Ariel (National Union), demonstrated outside the courtroom prior to
the sentencing. "No to Shutting Mouths!" was the theme. Among the
participants were also Rabbi Dov Lior of the Yesha Rabbinical Forum and
Tourism Minister Benny Elon. Ariel said, "Arutz-7 is the mouthpiece of a
very large public sector, and its silencing is a grave blow at the right to
freedom of speech."

The Arutz-7 management has consistently denied the accusations against it.
Many Arutz-7 listeners continue to enjoy the station's broadcasts via the
internet and over regular phone lines. One of Israel's leading internet
providers is now offering special deals for internet connectivity tailored
to the Arutz-7 listening public. For example, one deal for families that
don't want exposure to the internet enables tuning into the webcast using a
computer with no screen.

In other Arutz Sheva news, the Arutz Sheva Land of Israel Mission arrived in
Israel yesterday. The English-speaking participants will depart from the
Kings Hotel in Jerusalem at 8:30 tomorrow morning to embark on a day tour of
the studios of Arutz Sheva Israel National Radio and the surrounding area
including Bet El and Shilo. Individuals who wish to join the day tour may
register by calling Moshe (02) 970-9804.



Published: 14:19 December 29, 2003
Last Update: 18:30 December 29, 2003
http://www.arutzsheva.com/news.php3?id=55282


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yechidah
2003-12-29 19:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Many thanks for your helpful replies in putting vegetarianism and the
permission of meat eating into perspective.

I found this answer on the Ohr Sameach website and it resonates with my
(now-solidified) hashkafa.

by Rabbi Yirmiyahu Ullman

G-d initially intended that people be vegetarians: "Behold, I have given you
every seed-bearing plant on the face of the earth, and every tree that has
seed-bearing fruit to you for food" (Gen.1:29). Rashi (1040-1105), citing
the Sages who noted, "[Initially] Adam was not permitted to eat meat",
explains that G-d "did not permit Adam and his wife to kill a creature and
to eat flesh. Only every green herb shall they all eat together".

Ramban (1195-1270) offers a reason for this initial dietary law: "Living
creatures that possess a ‘moving’ soul have a certain spiritual superiority
in which they are similar to [humans] who possess an ‘intellect’ soul — they
pursue their welfare and food, and they flee from pain and death". According
to Rabbi Joseph Albo (1380-1440), the prohibition to eat meat was because,
"In the killing of animals there is cruelty, rage, and the accustoming of
oneself to the bad habit of shedding innocent blood".

By the time of Noah, humanity had degenerated greatly: "And G-d saw the
earth and behold it was corrupted, for all flesh had corrupted its way upon
the earth" (Gen. 6:12). As a concession to people's weakness, G-d permitted
meat: "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; as the green
herb have I given you all" (Gen. 9:3). Rabbi Albo explains that eating meat
was permitted to emphasize humansÂ’ higher moral level and degree of
responsibility.

The permission given to Noah was not unconditional — eating blood was
immediately prohibited: "But flesh with life in it, which is its blood, do
not eat" (Gen. 9:4). Additional laws also teach us sensitivity when taking
life for food. Ritual slaughter with an absolutely smooth blade is designed
to minimize pain. It is forbidden to kill a cow and her calf on the same day
(Leviticus 22:28); likewise one must send away a mother bird before taking
her young (Deut. 22:7). Indeed, our Sages taught that eating meat is
justified only when we demonstrate respect for life, and pursue holy and
spiritual lives — then it is likened to sacrifice on the altar.

This being said, there are many reasons offered for refraining from eating
meat. They include health reasons, unacceptable living conditions for
animals, alleviating world hunger, and preserving the environment and
natural resources. While Judaism places great importance on health, kindness
to animals, helping the needy and preserving the environment, it is beyond
our scope to explore the effect of vegetarianism on these factors. If after
thorough research one becomes convinced of these claims, any of them could
be a valid reason for refraining from eating meat.

Another valid reason is if one feels refraining from meat helps oneÂ’s own
spiritual improvement either by increasing self-control or sensitivity, as
expressed by Rabbi Solomon Efraim Lunchitz (Prague, 1550-1619) author of Kli
Yakar: "What was the necessity for the entire procedure of ritual slaughter?
For the sake of self-discipline. It is far more appropriate for man not to
eat meat". However, it is important to realize that refraining for humane
reasons doesnÂ’t necessarily make one more kind. While the Nazis passed laws
protecting animals, they were murdering millions of human beings.

Sources:

Judaism and Vegetarianism, Richard H. Schwartz
Sanhedrin 59b
Ramban, Genesis 1:29
Rabbi Joseph Albo, Sefer Ha-Ikkarim, Vol. III, ch. 15
Pesachim 59b, also see Tanya ch. 7
Kli Yakar, quoted in The Commandments and Their Rationale, Abraham Chill, p.
400


http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/1208/print



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bd4u
2003-12-30 09:42:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Judaism and Vegetarianism, Richard H. Schwartz
Sanhedrin 59b
Ramban, Genesis 1:29
Rabbi Joseph Albo, Sefer Ha-Ikkarim, Vol. III, ch. 15
Pesachim 59b, also see Tanya ch. 7
Kli Yakar, quoted in The Commandments and Their Rationale, Abraham Chill, p.
400
Hmmm, thanks. That made for an interesting read..

;-)

bd4u
paul abeles
2004-01-02 03:51:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
Killing for food: Mitzvah or sin?
Jews debate history, ethics of vegetarianism
TAMI BICKLEY
Associate Editor
Jewish vegetarians say slaughtering animals for food is inhumane and goes
against the Torah,
As we have already discussed ad nauseum in this forum, they are absolutely
wrong since the torah clearly permits and encourages us to eat meat. If
someone wishes to be a vegetarian for his own personal reasons, that of
course is his prerogative, but any Jew who asserts that eating animals is
inhumane or goes against the torah is clearly an ignoramus. Richard
Schwartz, who is cited below, is a classic example of such an individual who
understands very little about torah Judaism, yet attempts to hijack the
torah to promote his own personal vegetarian agenda. If being a vegetarian
were inhumane or anti-torah, then there would be large numbers of Orthodox
Jewish vegetarians, which of course there are not. Vegetarianism is almost
unheard of amongst the Orthodox. Even Rav Kook, the big-name rabbi who
believed that we would be vegetarians in the messianic age, ate meat for
shabbos and yom tov. Our sages clearly taught that there can be no joy
without meat and wine. To argue that something which the torah clearly
permits and in some cases mandates is inhumane or sinful is outright
anti-torah, and by definition heretical.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
I'm sure if god did exist he would smile on vegetarians before omnivores
like yourself. Don't you have a mind of your own. Do you always obey some
set of rules invented by MEN?
yechidah
2004-01-02 18:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
Killing for food: Mitzvah or sin?
Jews debate history, ethics of vegetarianism
TAMI BICKLEY
Associate Editor
Jewish vegetarians say slaughtering animals for food is inhumane and
goes
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
against the Torah,
As we have already discussed ad nauseum in this forum, they are absolutely
wrong since the torah clearly permits and encourages us to eat meat. If
someone wishes to be a vegetarian for his own personal reasons, that of
course is his prerogative, but any Jew who asserts that eating animals is
inhumane or goes against the torah is clearly an ignoramus. Richard
Schwartz, who is cited below, is a classic example of such an individual
who
Post by cindys
understands very little about torah Judaism, yet attempts to hijack the
torah to promote his own personal vegetarian agenda. If being a vegetarian
were inhumane or anti-torah, then there would be large numbers of Orthodox
Jewish vegetarians, which of course there are not. Vegetarianism is almost
unheard of amongst the Orthodox. Even Rav Kook, the big-name rabbi who
believed that we would be vegetarians in the messianic age, ate meat for
shabbos and yom tov. Our sages clearly taught that there can be no joy
without meat and wine. To argue that something which the torah clearly
permits and in some cases mandates is inhumane or sinful is outright
anti-torah, and by definition heretical.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
I'm sure if god did exist he would smile on vegetarians before omnivores
like yourself. Don't you have a mind of your own. Do you always obey some
set of rules invented by MEN?
Hashem wants us to be pure and simple in our ways. Our bodies must be at
their optimal functioning level. This includes absence of toxins. Of course
blessing the food takes care of spiritual impurities, that they do not enter
our bodies in a harmful way, that they only enhance the body, we are not to
put ourselves needlessly in harm's way. Preservation of (human) life
overrides any mitzvah. If we know meat and fish (loaded with mercury) is
potentially harmful to our bodies - Hashem wants us to take every step
possible in ensuring that we eat the food that has not been tampered with
genetically or chemically.

As for men - what does men have to do with this ANYWAY? Fact, most men study
Talmud. Fact, most prophets were men. Fact the prophet of all prophets -
Moses - a man. What's the deal?

YS



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paul abeles
2004-01-03 01:52:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
Killing for food: Mitzvah or sin?
Jews debate history, ethics of vegetarianism
TAMI BICKLEY
Associate Editor
Jewish vegetarians say slaughtering animals for food is inhumane and
goes
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
against the Torah,
As we have already discussed ad nauseum in this forum, they are
absolutely
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
wrong since the torah clearly permits and encourages us to eat meat. If
someone wishes to be a vegetarian for his own personal reasons, that of
course is his prerogative, but any Jew who asserts that eating animals
is
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
inhumane or goes against the torah is clearly an ignoramus. Richard
Schwartz, who is cited below, is a classic example of such an individual
who
Post by cindys
understands very little about torah Judaism, yet attempts to hijack the
torah to promote his own personal vegetarian agenda. If being a
vegetarian
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
were inhumane or anti-torah, then there would be large numbers of
Orthodox
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
Jewish vegetarians, which of course there are not. Vegetarianism is
almost
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
unheard of amongst the Orthodox. Even Rav Kook, the big-name rabbi who
believed that we would be vegetarians in the messianic age, ate meat for
shabbos and yom tov. Our sages clearly taught that there can be no joy
without meat and wine. To argue that something which the torah clearly
permits and in some cases mandates is inhumane or sinful is outright
anti-torah, and by definition heretical.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
I'm sure if god did exist he would smile on vegetarians before omnivores
like yourself. Don't you have a mind of your own. Do you always obey some
set of rules invented by MEN?
Hashem wants us to be pure and simple in our ways. Our bodies must be at
their optimal functioning level. This includes absence of toxins. Of course
blessing the food takes care of spiritual impurities, that they do not enter
our bodies in a harmful way, that they only enhance the body, we are not to
put ourselves needlessly in harm's way. Preservation of (human) life
overrides any mitzvah. If we know meat and fish (loaded with mercury) is
potentially harmful to our bodies - Hashem wants us to take every step
possible in ensuring that we eat the food that has not been tampered with
genetically or chemically.
As for men - what does men have to do with this ANYWAY? Fact, most men study
Talmud. Fact, most prophets were men. Fact the prophet of all prophets -
Moses - a man. What's the deal?
YS
Judaism and Islam share many things including repression of women.
Tilly
2004-01-03 08:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by paul abeles
Judaism and Islam share many things including repression of women.
Now that statement is a complete load of rubbish.
Women have a different but equally important role in Judaism.
Women are cherished and if anything placed on a pedestal.

Tilly

--
***@hotmail.com
Jim F.
2004-01-03 11:32:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by paul abeles
Judaism and Islam share many things including repression of women.
Now that statement is a complete load of rubbish.
However, isn't the higher status that women have enjoyed
in Judaism more of a function of the fact that most Jews
have lived in Western societies where the legacy of the
Enlightenment has held sway, than it is due to anything intrinsic
to traditional Judaism? If we wanted to investigate the
comparatives statuses of women under Judaism versus
women under Islam, wouldn't it be more useful to look
at say, how Jewish women in Yemen fared in relation
to Muslim women there, or how Moroccan Jewish
women fared as compared to Moroccan Muslim
women?
Post by Tilly
Women have a different but equally important role in Judaism.
Women are cherished and if anything placed on a pedestal.
Tilly
--
Tilly
2004-01-03 11:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim F.
However, isn't the higher status that women have enjoyed
in Judaism more of a function of the fact that most Jews
have lived in Western societies where the legacy of the
Enlightenment has held sway, than it is due to anything intrinsic
to traditional Judaism? If we wanted to investigate the
comparatives statuses of women under Judaism versus
women under Islam, wouldn't it be more useful to look
at say, how Jewish women in Yemen fared in relation
to Muslim women there, or how Moroccan Jewish
women fared as compared to Moroccan Muslim
women?
G_d didnot create
woman from man's head
that he should command her,

Nor from his feet,
that she should be his slave

But rather from his side,
that she should be near his heart.

The Talmud.



Tilly
--
***@hotmail.com
Jim F.
2004-01-03 11:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Jim F.
However, isn't the higher status that women have enjoyed
in Judaism more of a function of the fact that most Jews
have lived in Western societies where the legacy of the
Enlightenment has held sway, than it is due to anything intrinsic
to traditional Judaism? If we wanted to investigate the
comparatives statuses of women under Judaism versus
women under Islam, wouldn't it be more useful to look
at say, how Jewish women in Yemen fared in relation
to Muslim women there, or how Moroccan Jewish
women fared as compared to Moroccan Muslim
women?
G_d didnot create
woman from man's head
that he should command her,
Nor from his feet,
that she should be his slave
But rather from his side,
that she should be near his heart.
The Talmud.
Yes, Tilly but you can find similar sentiments expressed
in the Christian Bible or even the Koran, so what?

"And among God's signs is this: He created for you mates from
amongst yourselves (males as mates for females and vice versa)
that you might find tranquillity and peace in them. And he has put l
ove and kindness among you. Herein surely are signs for those
who reflect (Koran 30:21)."

Jim F.
Post by Tilly
Tilly
--
Susan Cohen
2004-01-04 11:12:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by Jim F.
However, isn't the higher status that women have enjoyed
in Judaism more of a function of the fact that most Jews
have lived in Western societies where the legacy of the
Enlightenment has held sway, than it is due to anything intrinsic
to traditional Judaism? If we wanted to investigate the
comparatives statuses of women under Judaism versus
women under Islam, wouldn't it be more useful to look
at say, how Jewish women in Yemen fared in relation
to Muslim women there, or how Moroccan Jewish
women fared as compared to Moroccan Muslim
women?
G_d didnot create
woman from man's head
that he should command her,
Nor from his feet,
that she should be his slave
But rather from his side,
that she should be near his heart.
The Talmud.
The point is that it's the opposite: It has been exposure to the Western
world that has lead to less learned people - Jews & non-Jews alike -
devaluing the woman's role.

Susan
BTov
2004-01-04 12:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Susan Cohen
Post by Tilly
Post by Jim F.
However, isn't the higher status that women have enjoyed
in Judaism more of a function of the fact that most Jews
have lived in Western societies where the legacy of the
Enlightenment has held sway, than it is due to anything intrinsic
to traditional Judaism? If we wanted to investigate the
comparatives statuses of women under Judaism versus
women under Islam, wouldn't it be more useful to look
at say, how Jewish women in Yemen fared in relation
to Muslim women there, or how Moroccan Jewish
women fared as compared to Moroccan Muslim
women?
G_d didnot create
woman from man's head
that he should command her,
Nor from his feet,
that she should be his slave
But rather from his side,
that she should be near his heart.
The Talmud.
The point is that it's the opposite: It has been exposure to the Western
world that has lead to less learned people - Jews & non-Jews alike -
devaluing the woman's role.
Susan
who is less learned than the primitive irish, susan?
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
2004-01-04 06:42:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by paul abeles
Judaism and Islam share many things including repression of women.
Now that statement is a complete load of rubbish.
Women have a different but equally important role in Judaism.
Women are cherished and if anything placed on a pedestal.
Or in the 'red tent' depending on the time of month. LOL!!!
Post by Tilly
Tilly
--
Tilly
2004-01-04 06:46:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
Post by Tilly
Post by paul abeles
Judaism and Islam share many things including repression of women.
Now that statement is a complete load of rubbish.
Women have a different but equally important role in Judaism.
Women are cherished and if anything placed on a pedestal.
Or in the 'red tent' depending on the time of month. LOL!!!
I suppose you have one in your backyard.

Tilly
***@hotmail.com
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
2004-01-05 06:32:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
Post by Tilly
Post by paul abeles
Judaism and Islam share many things including repression of women.
Now that statement is a complete load of rubbish.
Women have a different but equally important role in Judaism.
Women are cherished and if anything placed on a pedestal.
Or in the 'red tent' depending on the time of month. LOL!!!
I suppose you have one in your backyard.
Why would I need one, twatty? I have no use for jew women.
Post by Tilly
Tilly
yechidah
2004-01-04 00:20:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
Killing for food: Mitzvah or sin?
Jews debate history, ethics of vegetarianism
TAMI BICKLEY
Associate Editor
Jewish vegetarians say slaughtering animals for food is inhumane and
goes
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
against the Torah,
As we have already discussed ad nauseum in this forum, they are
absolutely
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
wrong since the torah clearly permits and encourages us to eat meat.
If
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
someone wishes to be a vegetarian for his own personal reasons, that
of
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
course is his prerogative, but any Jew who asserts that eating animals
is
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
inhumane or goes against the torah is clearly an ignoramus. Richard
Schwartz, who is cited below, is a classic example of such an
individual
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
who
Post by cindys
understands very little about torah Judaism, yet attempts to hijack
the
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
torah to promote his own personal vegetarian agenda. If being a
vegetarian
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
were inhumane or anti-torah, then there would be large numbers of
Orthodox
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
Jewish vegetarians, which of course there are not. Vegetarianism is
almost
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
unheard of amongst the Orthodox. Even Rav Kook, the big-name rabbi who
believed that we would be vegetarians in the messianic age, ate meat
for
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
shabbos and yom tov. Our sages clearly taught that there can be no joy
without meat and wine. To argue that something which the torah clearly
permits and in some cases mandates is inhumane or sinful is outright
anti-torah, and by definition heretical.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
I'm sure if god did exist he would smile on vegetarians before omnivores
like yourself. Don't you have a mind of your own. Do you always obey
some
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
set of rules invented by MEN?
Hashem wants us to be pure and simple in our ways. Our bodies must be at
their optimal functioning level. This includes absence of toxins. Of
course
Post by cindys
blessing the food takes care of spiritual impurities, that they do not
enter
Post by cindys
our bodies in a harmful way, that they only enhance the body, we are not
to
Post by cindys
put ourselves needlessly in harm's way. Preservation of (human) life
overrides any mitzvah. If we know meat and fish (loaded with mercury) is
potentially harmful to our bodies - Hashem wants us to take every step
possible in ensuring that we eat the food that has not been tampered with
genetically or chemically.
As for men - what does men have to do with this ANYWAY? Fact, most men
study
Post by cindys
Talmud. Fact, most prophets were men. Fact the prophet of all prophets -
Moses - a man. What's the deal?
YS
Judaism and Islam share many things including repression of women.
Hmm.. Do we seem repressed to you?

LOLOLOL


YS


---
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paul abeles
2004-01-04 10:39:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
Killing for food: Mitzvah or sin?
Jews debate history, ethics of vegetarianism
TAMI BICKLEY
Associate Editor
Jewish vegetarians say slaughtering animals for food is inhumane
and
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
goes
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
against the Torah,
As we have already discussed ad nauseum in this forum, they are
absolutely
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
wrong since the torah clearly permits and encourages us to eat meat.
If
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
someone wishes to be a vegetarian for his own personal reasons, that
of
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
course is his prerogative, but any Jew who asserts that eating
animals
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
is
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
inhumane or goes against the torah is clearly an ignoramus.
Richard
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
Schwartz, who is cited below, is a classic example of such an
individual
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
who
Post by cindys
understands very little about torah Judaism, yet attempts to hijack
the
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
torah to promote his own personal vegetarian agenda. If being a
vegetarian
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
were inhumane or anti-torah, then there would be large numbers of
Orthodox
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
Jewish vegetarians, which of course there are not. Vegetarianism i
s
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
almost
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
unheard of amongst the Orthodox. Even Rav Kook, the big-name rabbi
who
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
believed that we would be vegetarians in the messianic age, ate meat
for
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
shabbos and yom tov. Our sages clearly taught that there can be no
joy
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
without meat and wine. To argue that something which the torah
clearly
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
permits and in some cases mandates is inhumane or sinful is outright
anti-torah, and by definition heretical.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
I'm sure if god did exist he would smile on vegetarians before
omnivores
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
like yourself. Don't you have a mind of your own. Do you always obey
some
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
set of rules invented by MEN?
Hashem wants us to be pure and simple in our ways. Our bodies must be at
their optimal functioning level. This includes absence of toxins. Of
course
Post by cindys
blessing the food takes care of spiritual impurities, that they do not
enter
Post by cindys
our bodies in a harmful way, that they only enhance the body, we are not
to
Post by cindys
put ourselves needlessly in harm's way. Preservation of (human) life
overrides any mitzvah. If we know meat and fish (loaded with mercury)
is
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
potentially harmful to our bodies - Hashem wants us to take every step
possible in ensuring that we eat the food that has not been tampered
with
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
genetically or chemically.
As for men - what does men have to do with this ANYWAY? Fact, most men
study
Post by cindys
Talmud. Fact, most prophets were men. Fact the prophet of all prophets -
Moses - a man. What's the deal?
YS
Judaism and Islam share many things including repression of women.
Hmm.. Do we seem repressed to you?
LOLOLOL
YS
Indeed you do. You and others like Susan and Cindy use these newsgroups as
outlets.
Tilly
2004-01-04 11:28:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by paul abeles
Indeed you do. You and others like Susan and Cindy use these
newsgroups as outlets.
No more than you do.

Tilly
--
***@hotmail.com
paul abeles
2004-01-04 22:26:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tilly
Post by paul abeles
Indeed you do. You and others like Susan and Cindy use these
newsgroups as outlets.
No more than you do.
Tilly
Yes I'm repressed.
Patricia Heil
2004-01-04 13:11:15 UTC
Permalink
Such a hypocrite. If you had a life, you wouldn't be using
the newsgroup as an outlet for your hatred.
Post by paul abeles
Indeed you do. You and others like Susan and Cindy use these newsgroups as
outlets.
paul abeles
2004-01-04 22:27:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patricia Heil
Such a hypocrite. If you had a life, you wouldn't be using
the newsgroup as an outlet for your hatred.
You know, I don't actually hate anyone. I feel sorry for a lot.
yechidah
2004-01-04 18:36:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
Killing for food: Mitzvah or sin?
Jews debate history, ethics of vegetarianism
TAMI BICKLEY
Associate Editor
Jewish vegetarians say slaughtering animals for food is inhumane
and
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
goes
Post by cindys
Post by yechidah
against the Torah,
As we have already discussed ad nauseum in this forum, they are
absolutely
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
wrong since the torah clearly permits and encourages us to eat
meat.
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
If
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
someone wishes to be a vegetarian for his own personal reasons,
that
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
of
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
course is his prerogative, but any Jew who asserts that eating
animals
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
is
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
inhumane or goes against the torah is clearly an ignoramus.
Richard
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
Schwartz, who is cited below, is a classic example of such an
individual
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
who
Post by cindys
understands very little about torah Judaism, yet attempts to
hijack
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
the
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
torah to promote his own personal vegetarian agenda. If being a
vegetarian
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
were inhumane or anti-torah, then there would be large numbers of
Orthodox
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
Jewish vegetarians, which of course there are not. Vegetarianism i
s
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
almost
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
unheard of amongst the Orthodox. Even Rav Kook, the big-name rabbi
who
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
believed that we would be vegetarians in the messianic age, ate
meat
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
for
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
shabbos and yom tov. Our sages clearly taught that there can be no
joy
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
without meat and wine. To argue that something which the torah
clearly
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
permits and in some cases mandates is inhumane or sinful is
outright
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
Post by cindys
anti-torah, and by definition heretical.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
I'm sure if god did exist he would smile on vegetarians before
omnivores
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
like yourself. Don't you have a mind of your own. Do you always
obey
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
some
Post by cindys
Post by paul abeles
set of rules invented by MEN?
Hashem wants us to be pure and simple in our ways. Our bodies must
be
Post by yechidah
at
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
their optimal functioning level. This includes absence of toxins. Of
course
Post by cindys
blessing the food takes care of spiritual impurities, that they do not
enter
Post by cindys
our bodies in a harmful way, that they only enhance the body, we are
not
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
to
Post by cindys
put ourselves needlessly in harm's way. Preservation of (human) life
overrides any mitzvah. If we know meat and fish (loaded with mercury)
is
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
potentially harmful to our bodies - Hashem wants us to take every step
possible in ensuring that we eat the food that has not been tampered
with
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
genetically or chemically.
As for men - what does men have to do with this ANYWAY? Fact, most men
study
Post by cindys
Talmud. Fact, most prophets were men. Fact the prophet of all
prophets -
Post by yechidah
Post by yechidah
Post by cindys
Moses - a man. What's the deal?
YS
Judaism and Islam share many things including repression of women.
Hmm.. Do we seem repressed to you?
LOLOLOL
YS
Indeed you do. You and others like Susan and Cindy use these newsgroups as
outlets.
There is activity going on with certain women who claim to be Jewish and
hateful, spiteful men who detest them. They seem to get off on the thrill. I
have them all safely in my killfile as I don't need this in my own personal
life at all. Needless to say, this kind of behavior is highly inappropriate
and sorrowfully telling about their internal lives. I have messages to
convey, and convey them. Whoever wants to hear, fine. Not - fine too.

YS


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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