Discussion:
CHO RETURNS-6 shot dead at Northern Illinois University
(too old to reply)
Dr. Lippschitz
2008-02-15 05:51:02 UTC
Permalink
DEKALB, Illinois (CNN) -- A gunperson dressed in black stepped from behind a
curtain at the front of a large lecture hall at Northern Illinois University
on Thursday and shot 21 people, five of them fatally, then shot and killed
himself, said university president John Peters.

Rescue workers carry a victim from Cole Hall Thursday after a gunperson
shot 21 people during a geology class.
Four died at the scene, including the shooter, and two later died at the
hospital, he said.
At least 22 people, including a graduate student who was teaching an ocean
sciences class, were shot, Peters said.

Seventeen victims were taken to Kishwaukee Community Hospital, its Web site
said.

Of those, six were in critical condition and were flown to other hospitals.
One fatality, a man, was confirmed -- but was not the gunperson, the
hospital said. Two were admitted, and three others were discharged. The
other five were not addressed on the Web site.

Four of the fatalities were female, said Peters.

Most of the injuries are head and chest gunshot wounds, a hospital
spokeswoman told CNN.

The gunperson started shooting from a stage in the room shortly after 3 p.m.
(4 p.m. ET) in Cole Hall, officials said.

Police Chief Donald Grady said authorities do not yet know of a motive.

They know the identity of the gunperson but have not released his name,
Grady added.

The shooter was a graduate student at NIU in the spring of 2007. Currently
he was not enrolled there but, Grady said, "He may have been a student
elsewhere."

Kevin McEnery said he was in the classroom when the gunperson, dressed in a
black shirt, dark pants and black hat, burst in carrying a shotgun. See
photos of the scene »

"He just kicked the door open, just started shooting," said McEnery, who was
in the class at the time. "All I really heard was just people screaming,
yelling 'get out.' ... Close to 30 shots were fired." Watch a student
describe the chaos at the scene »

There are about 162 registered students in the class that met in the large
lecture hall.

A student described the classroom as having four exits - two at the front
and two at the rear. "Witnesses say someone dressed in black came out from
behind a screen in the front of the classroom and opened fire with a
shotgun," Peters said.

At 3:03 p.m., NIU police responded, and four minutes later, the campus was
ordered into "a lockdown situation," Grady said.

At 3:20, an all-campus alert went out via the campus Web site, e-mail, voice
mail, the campus crisis hotline, the news media and various alarm systems,
he said.

Don't Miss
a.. WQAD: See local coverage of shooting
b.. WLS: More local coverage of shooting
"The message basically was: There's a gunperson on campus, stay where you
are, make yourself as safe as possible," he said.

Rosie Moroni, a student at the school, told CNN she was outside Cole Hall
near the King Commons when she heard shots coming from the classroom she was
heading to.

The shot was followed by "a lot of people screaming," then people ran out
the doors yelling, "He's got a gun, call 9-1-1," she said.

"It was complete chaos. It's very scary here right now."

By 4 p.m., DeKalb police had swept the area "and determined there was only
one gunperson" and that he was dead.

Grady said the man used three guns: a shotgun, a Glock handgun and a
small-caliber handgun, and was still on the stage when he turned one of the
guns on himself. The small-caliber handgun has not been recovered, he said.

The shooter started with a shotgun, then switched to a handgun, said Grady.

A spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives told
CNN that agents were on the scene, and could help trace the weapon or
weapons used. Peters said the FBI is processing the crime scene and ATF was
interviewing witnesses Thursday.

Events and classes were canceled until further notice, Peters said.

Seven counseling areas were set up throughout the campus, and hotlines were
established.

Security around campus was increased in December when police found threats
scrawled on a campus bathroom wall that included racial slurs and references
to last April's Virginia Tech shootings. Learn about other recent school
shootings »

One of the threats said "things will change most hastily" in the final days
of the semester.

Peters said there is no evidence that points to a link between the December
incident and Thursday's shooting.

Grady said it was unlikely authorities could have prevented Thursday's
tragedy. "As much as we do, it's unlikely that anyone would ever have the
ability to stop an incident like this from beginning," he said.

Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich declared a state of emergency, which will open
the governor's disaster fund to reimburse local government entities for
"extraordinary expenses related to the response in NIU DeKalb" and will
allow the state Emergency Management Agency to provide assistance, the
governor's office said in a statement.
The 113-year-old school is 65 miles west of downtown Chicago and has an
enrollment of more than 25,000. The campus covers 755 acres. See a map of
where the shooting took place » E-mail to a friend


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S***@hotmail.com
2008-02-15 11:06:01 UTC
Permalink
<Snip>

What is a "gunperson"?

This is a terrible tragedy. That a "gunperson" can transfer their rage
and disapointment to this type of action simply speaks to the weakness
of our society. WHen the ability to care for it's self is taken away
from a society people feel helpless. When they feel helpless they
strike back like this.

We have come to a point in our development where we can no longer take
care of ourselves. We depend on the grocer to provide foodstuffs
rather than growing our own. We depend on the rancher and the butcher
to proivide meats... We depend on the local police to protect us....
we depend on lawyers to get us compensation when we are wronged.... we
depend on the government to provide us with justice.....

Selfe sufficency is dwindling by the day and it leaves us with a sense
of unability to control our own personal lives. Maybe this is why
people like this lash back in such violent manners.

And please..... in the article the gender of the "gunperson" is stated
to be male so just say GUNMAN. Using the word MAN is not a sin you
know!!!

Christ I hate political correctness!
Avenger
2008-02-15 11:23:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@hotmail.com
<Snip>
What is a "gunperson"?
This is a terrible tragedy. That a "gunperson" can transfer their rage
and disapointment to this type of action simply speaks to the weakness
of our society. WHen the ability to care for it's self is taken away
from a society people feel helpless. When they feel helpless they
strike back like this.
We have come to a point in our development where we can no longer take
care of ourselves. We depend on the grocer to provide foodstuffs
rather than growing our own. We depend on the rancher and the butcher
to proivide meats... We depend on the local police to protect us....
we depend on lawyers to get us compensation when we are wronged.... we
depend on the government to provide us with justice.....
Selfe sufficency is dwindling by the day and it leaves us with a sense
of unability to control our own personal lives. Maybe this is why
people like this lash back in such violent manners.
And please..... in the article the gender of the "gunperson" is stated
to be male so just say GUNMAN. Using the word MAN is not a sin you
know!!!
It's the media not me who is PC. Whenever a female does something like this
(and it is more common than you think) they never mention the sex.
Post by S***@hotmail.com
Christ I hate political correctness!
You're wrong. The original was gunman. The reason I changed it was because
whenever an incident like this occurs, if it's a man he's described as a
gunman but if it's a female they will use a description where you can't
determine the sex of the shooter.
S***@hotmail.com
2008-02-15 23:52:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Avenger
Post by S***@hotmail.com
<Snip>
What is a "gunperson"?
This is a terrible tragedy. That a "gunperson" can transfer their rage
and disapointment to this type of action simply speaks to the weakness
of our society. WHen the ability to care for it's self is taken away
from a society people feel helpless. When they feel helpless they
strike back like this.
We have come to a point in our development where we can no longer take
care of ourselves. We depend on the grocer to provide foodstuffs
rather than growing our own. We depend on the rancher and the butcher
to proivide meats... We depend on the local police to protect us....
we depend on lawyers to get us compensation when we are wronged.... we
depend on the government to provide us with justice.....
Selfe sufficency is dwindling by the day and it leaves us with a sense
of unability to control our own personal lives. Maybe this is why
people like this lash back in such violent manners.
And please..... in the article the gender of the "gunperson" is stated
to be male so just say GUNMAN. Using the word MAN is not a sin you
know!!!
It's the media not me who is PC. Whenever a female does something like this
(and it is more common than you think) they never mention the sex.
Post by S***@hotmail.com
Christ I hate political correctness!
You're wrong. The original was gunman. The reason I changed it was because
whenever an incident like this occurs, if it's a man he's described as a
gunman but if it's a female they will use a description where you can't
determine the sex of the shooter.
OIC. It was your change.

OK. Being a CNN story I naturally made the conclusion that it was
their left leaning political coirrectness.
Governor Swill
2008-02-17 06:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@hotmail.com
Post by Avenger
You're wrong. The original was gunman. The reason I changed it was because
whenever an incident like this occurs, if it's a man he's described as a
gunman but if it's a female they will use a description where you can't
determine the sex of the shooter.
OIC. It was your change.
OK. Being a CNN story I naturally made the conclusion that it was
their left leaning political coirrectness.
That's why modifying quoted articles is verboten and is also why any
article that is not accompanied by the link back to it should go
unread. I rarely read such things as they're posted here. I look for
the link to read the original and if there's not one, usually move on
to another post.

Swill
S***@hotmail.com
2008-02-18 11:45:03 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 01:47:40 -0500, Governor Swill
Post by Governor Swill
Post by S***@hotmail.com
Post by Avenger
You're wrong. The original was gunman. The reason I changed it was because
whenever an incident like this occurs, if it's a man he's described as a
gunman but if it's a female they will use a description where you can't
determine the sex of the shooter.
OIC. It was your change.
OK. Being a CNN story I naturally made the conclusion that it was
their left leaning political coirrectness.
That's why modifying quoted articles is verboten and is also why any
article that is not accompanied by the link back to it should go
unread. I rarely read such things as they're posted here. I look for
the link to read the original and if there's not one, usually move on
to another post.
Swill
Good policy considering some of the company we keep here.
Governor Swill
2008-02-18 20:36:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@hotmail.com
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 01:47:40 -0500, Governor Swill
Post by Governor Swill
Post by S***@hotmail.com
Post by Avenger
You're wrong. The original was gunman. The reason I changed it was because
whenever an incident like this occurs, if it's a man he's described as a
gunman but if it's a female they will use a description where you can't
determine the sex of the shooter.
OIC. It was your change.
OK. Being a CNN story I naturally made the conclusion that it was
their left leaning political coirrectness.
That's why modifying quoted articles is verboten and is also why any
article that is not accompanied by the link back to it should go
unread. I rarely read such things as they're posted here. I look for
the link to read the original and if there's not one, usually move on
to another post.
Swill
Good policy considering some of the company we keep here.
At least Lippschitz owned up to what he'd done.

Swill
--
THIS is how we have to win the Iraq War
http://www.wheelchairsforiraqikids.com/
genie
2008-02-15 11:57:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@hotmail.com
<Snip>
What is a "gunperson"?
This is a terrible tragedy. That a "gunperson" can transfer their rage
and disapointment to this type of action simply speaks to the weakness
of our society. WHen the ability to care for it's self is taken away
from a society people feel helpless. When they feel helpless they
strike back like this.
We have come to a point in our development where we can no longer take
care of ourselves. We depend on the grocer to provide foodstuffs
rather than growing our own. We depend on the rancher and the butcher
to proivide meats... We depend on the local police to protect us....
we depend on lawyers to get us compensation when we are wronged.... we
depend on the government to provide us with justice.....
Selfe sufficency is dwindling by the day and it leaves us with a sense
of unability to control our own personal lives. Maybe this is why
people like this lash back in such violent manners.
And please..... in the article the gender of the "gunperson" is stated
to be male so just say GUNMAN. Using the word MAN is not a sin you
know!!!
Christ I hate political correctness!
I know I will be flamed for saying so, but I truly believe the root of
the problem begins at home and how a child is raised. The liberal idea
of upbringing, no discipline, no guidance or limitations, instant
gratification, no consequences for bad behavior, no structure
including lack parental presence for demonstration of morality,
instruction in community well being, and giving the child nothing
worthy of emulating other than game heroes, musicians, or ledge-headed
athletes. Then shuffling them off to school to be raised by teachers
for 12 years, who are busy ignoring their own kids.
Starkiller
2008-02-15 13:09:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by genie
Post by S***@hotmail.com
<Snip>
What is a "gunperson"?
This is a terrible tragedy. That a "gunperson" can transfer their rage
and disapointment to this type of action simply speaks to the weakness
of our society. WHen the ability to care for it's self is taken away
from a society people feel helpless. When they feel helpless they
strike back like this.
We have come to a point in our development where we can no longer take
care of ourselves. We depend on the grocer to provide foodstuffs
rather than growing our own. We depend on the rancher and the butcher
to proivide meats... We depend on the local police to protect us....
we depend on lawyers to get us compensation when we are wronged.... we
depend on the government to provide us with justice.....
Selfe sufficency is dwindling by the day and it leaves us with a sense
of unability to control our own personal lives. Maybe this is why
people like this lash back in such violent manners.
And please..... in the article the gender of the "gunperson" is stated
to be male so just say GUNMAN. Using the word MAN is not a sin you
know!!!
Christ I hate political correctness!
I know I will be flamed for saying so, but I truly believe the root of
the problem begins at home and how a child is raised. The liberal idea
of upbringing, no discipline, no guidance or limitations, instant
gratification, no consequences for bad behavior, no structure
including lack parental presence for demonstration of morality,
instruction in community well being, and giving the child nothing
worthy of emulating other than game heroes, musicians, or ledge-headed
athletes. Then shuffling them off to school to be raised by teachers
for 12 years, who are busy ignoring their own kids.
Indeed. We used to have an employee, a draftsman, who got real
adamant with me one day talking about how he never said no to his two
sons and never disciplined them. He claimed that all kids were born
good and had to be taught to be bad. Long story made short, the
oldest son died from a car crash where he and the other occupant were
stoned out of their minds on pain pills. The other son commited
suicide over a relationship. So much for letting them raise
themselves yes? Both were not even 20 years old when they died.
S***@hotmail.com
2008-02-15 23:56:05 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:09:15 -0600, Starkiller
Post by Starkiller
Post by genie
Post by S***@hotmail.com
<Snip>
What is a "gunperson"?
This is a terrible tragedy. That a "gunperson" can transfer their rage
and disapointment to this type of action simply speaks to the weakness
of our society. WHen the ability to care for it's self is taken away
from a society people feel helpless. When they feel helpless they
strike back like this.
We have come to a point in our development where we can no longer take
care of ourselves. We depend on the grocer to provide foodstuffs
rather than growing our own. We depend on the rancher and the butcher
to proivide meats... We depend on the local police to protect us....
we depend on lawyers to get us compensation when we are wronged.... we
depend on the government to provide us with justice.....
Selfe sufficency is dwindling by the day and it leaves us with a sense
of unability to control our own personal lives. Maybe this is why
people like this lash back in such violent manners.
And please..... in the article the gender of the "gunperson" is stated
to be male so just say GUNMAN. Using the word MAN is not a sin you
know!!!
Christ I hate political correctness!
I know I will be flamed for saying so, but I truly believe the root of
the problem begins at home and how a child is raised. The liberal idea
of upbringing, no discipline, no guidance or limitations, instant
gratification, no consequences for bad behavior, no structure
including lack parental presence for demonstration of morality,
instruction in community well being, and giving the child nothing
worthy of emulating other than game heroes, musicians, or ledge-headed
athletes. Then shuffling them off to school to be raised by teachers
for 12 years, who are busy ignoring their own kids.
Indeed. We used to have an employee, a draftsman, who got real
adamant with me one day talking about how he never said no to his two
sons and never disciplined them. He claimed that all kids were born
good and had to be taught to be bad. Long story made short, the
oldest son died from a car crash where he and the other occupant were
stoned out of their minds on pain pills. The other son commited
suicide over a relationship. So much for letting them raise
themselves yes? Both were not even 20 years old when they died.
It's a pity to waste prtential like that.

Life is nothing without some form of disclipine in it.
Governor Swill
2008-02-17 07:24:01 UTC
Permalink
Starkiller <***@Hotmail.com> used a stick in the sand to
babble
Post by Starkiller
Post by genie
I know I will be flamed for saying so, but I truly believe the root of
the problem begins at home and how a child is raised. The liberal idea
of upbringing, no discipline, no guidance or limitations, instant
gratification, no consequences for bad behavior, no structure
including lack parental presence for demonstration of morality,
instruction in community well being, and giving the child nothing
worthy of emulating other than game heroes, musicians, or ledge-headed
athletes. Then shuffling them off to school to be raised by teachers
for 12 years, who are busy ignoring their own kids.
Indeed. We used to have an employee, a draftsman, who got real
adamant with me one day talking about how he never said no to his two
sons and never disciplined them. He claimed that all kids were born
good and had to be taught to be bad. Long story made short, the
oldest son died from a car crash where he and the other occupant were
stoned out of their minds on pain pills. The other son commited
suicide over a relationship. So much for letting them raise
themselves yes? Both were not even 20 years old when they died.
My aunts and uncles were very conservative in the way they raised
their kids. But that didn't stop two female cousins from dying in
their teens, one of CO poisoning while sitting with her boyfriend in
his car on a cold night, another from dying in an alcohol related
crash. I have cousins who never married and cousins who have to use a
score card at Christmas to keep track of spouses and children. No
criminals as far as know or insane either.

And this brings us back to VT, NIU the unabomber and other
psychopaths. They aren't liberal or conservative or the victims of
one or the other kind of upbringing. They're insane.

Any attempt to spin that insanity as being directly due to a political
ideology only demonstrates the ignorance of those who would do so.

Swill
Hugh Gibbons
2008-02-17 20:26:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Governor Swill
And this brings us back to VT, NIU the unabomber and other
psychopaths. They aren't liberal or conservative or the victims of
one or the other kind of upbringing. They're insane.
I agree they were insane, but I don't think any of them except
maybe Ted Kazinsky (and that's a stretch) was a psychopath.
Psychopaths are in touch with reality, but they lack moral
feelings and convictions.
Post by Governor Swill
Any attempt to spin that insanity as being directly due to a political
ideology only demonstrates the ignorance of those who would do so.
Swill
Avenger
2008-02-15 13:17:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@hotmail.com
<Snip>
What is a "gunperson"?
This is a terrible tragedy. That a "gunperson" can transfer their rage
and disapointment to this type of action simply speaks to the weakness
of our society. WHen the ability to care for it's self is taken away
from a society people feel helpless. When they feel helpless they
strike back like this.
I bet he didn't get a Valentine card haha
Post by S***@hotmail.com
We have come to a point in our development where we can no longer take
care of ourselves. We depend on the grocer to provide foodstuffs
rather than growing our own. We depend on the rancher and the butcher
to proivide meats...
We're advanced, we have specialisation.



We depend on the local police to protect us....
Post by S***@hotmail.com
we depend on lawyers to get us compensation when we are wronged..
What's wrong with that? If you were injured or crippled as a result of
someone else's fault shouldn't you be compensated?


.. we
Post by S***@hotmail.com
depend on the government to provide us with justice.....
Would you prefer that we settle things with 6 shooters at high noon? In the
civilised world we have an impartial entity(the government) settle matters
of law and punishment including the death penalty. Otherwise, people would
engage in vendettas against other people and families, as we see in a lot of
the world, to get revenge for the wrongs committed against them. There would
be no end to this.
Post by S***@hotmail.com
Selfe sufficency is dwindling by the day and it leaves us with a sense
of unability to control our own personal lives. Maybe this is why
people like this lash back in such violent manners.
These are indidual disturbed people but without the Law the entire society
would be like this.
Post by S***@hotmail.com
And please..... in the article the gender of the "gunperson" is stated
to be male so just say GUNMAN. Using the word MAN is not a sin you
know!!!
Christ I hate political correctness!
I know I will be flamed for saying so, but I truly believe the root of
the problem begins at home and how a child is raised. The liberal idea
of upbringing, no discipline, no guidance or limitations, instant
gratification, no consequences for bad behavior, no structure
including lack parental presence for demonstration of morality,
instruction in community well being, and giving the child nothing
worthy of emulating other than game heroes, musicians, or ledge-headed
athletes. Then shuffling them off to school to be raised by teachers
for 12 years, who are busy ignoring their own kids.

You should watch that Skinner, you're starting to sound like an old fossil.
People in the past were just as bad, perhaps worse.
genie
2008-02-15 13:32:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@hotmail.com
<Snip>
What is a "gunperson"?
This is a terrible tragedy. That a "gunperson" can transfer their rage
and disapointment to this type of action simply speaks to the weakness
of our society. WHen the ability to care for it's self is taken away
from a society people feel helpless. When they feel helpless they
strike back like this.
I bet he didn't get a Valentine card   haha
Post by S***@hotmail.com
We have come to a point in our development where we can no longer take
care of ourselves. We depend on the grocer to provide foodstuffs
rather than growing our own. We depend on the rancher and the butcher
to proivide meats...
We're advanced, we have specialisation.
 We depend on the local police to protect us....
Post by S***@hotmail.com
we depend on lawyers to get us compensation when we are wronged..
What's wrong with that? If you were injured or crippled as a result of
someone else's fault shouldn't you be compensated?
.. we
Post by S***@hotmail.com
depend on the government to provide us with justice.....
Would you prefer that we settle things with 6 shooters at high noon? In the
civilised world we have an impartial entity(the government) settle matters
of law and punishment including the death penalty. Otherwise, people would
engage in vendettas against other people and families, as we see in a lot of
the world, to get revenge for the wrongs committed against them. There would
be no end to this.
Post by S***@hotmail.com
Selfe sufficency is dwindling by the day and it leaves us with a sense
of unability to control our own personal lives. Maybe this is why
people like this lash back in such violent manners.
These are indidual disturbed people but  without the Law the entire society
would be like this.
Post by S***@hotmail.com
And please..... in the article the gender of the "gunperson" is stated
to be male so just say GUNMAN. Using the word MAN is not a sin you
know!!!
Christ I hate political correctness!
I know I will be flamed for saying so, but I truly believe the root of
the problem begins at home and how a child is raised. The liberal idea
of upbringing, no discipline, no guidance or limitations, instant
gratification, no consequences for bad behavior, no structure
including lack parental presence for demonstration of morality,
instruction in community well being, and giving the child nothing
worthy of emulating other than game heroes, musicians, or ledge-headed
athletes. Then shuffling them off to school to be raised by teachers
for 12 years, who are busy ignoring their own kids.
You should watch that Skinner, you're starting to sound like an old fossil.
People in the past were just as bad, perhaps worse.
Yeah back in ancient history when the last thing on a kids mind was
getting murdered by another one, if you weren't rich the only way to
be popular was be smart or an athlete, getting knocked up was an
embarrassment and if you "put out" you were a slut, it was OK to wear
hand me downs or clothes off the rack, and the worst thing that could
happen to a rebellious kid was to get caught cheating or smoking
cigarettes.
S***@hotmail.com
2008-02-15 23:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by genie
Post by S***@hotmail.com
<Snip>
What is a "gunperson"?
This is a terrible tragedy. That a "gunperson" can transfer their rage
and disapointment to this type of action simply speaks to the weakness
of our society. WHen the ability to care for it's self is taken away
from a society people feel helpless. When they feel helpless they
strike back like this.
We have come to a point in our development where we can no longer take
care of ourselves. We depend on the grocer to provide foodstuffs
rather than growing our own. We depend on the rancher and the butcher
to proivide meats... We depend on the local police to protect us....
we depend on lawyers to get us compensation when we are wronged.... we
depend on the government to provide us with justice.....
Selfe sufficency is dwindling by the day and it leaves us with a sense
of unability to control our own personal lives. Maybe this is why
people like this lash back in such violent manners.
And please..... in the article the gender of the "gunperson" is stated
to be male so just say GUNMAN. Using the word MAN is not a sin you
know!!!
Christ I hate political correctness!
I know I will be flamed for saying so, but I truly believe the root of
the problem begins at home and how a child is raised. The liberal idea
of upbringing, no discipline, no guidance or limitations, instant
gratification, no consequences for bad behavior, no structure
including lack parental presence for demonstration of morality,
instruction in community well being, and giving the child nothing
worthy of emulating other than game heroes, musicians, or ledge-headed
athletes. Then shuffling them off to school to be raised by teachers
for 12 years, who are busy ignoring their own kids.
You'll hear no argument from me here! I'll go one step further. Our
society for all it's political correctness and liberalism has created
eunichs more than men at the age 18!

We desperatly need gender specific education and rearing again. And we
desperatly need the draft back!!
Hugh Gibbons
2008-02-16 02:08:56 UTC
Permalink
In article
<d6d08b4a-4127-4341-a054-***@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.co
m>,
Post by genie
I know I will be flamed for saying so, but I truly believe the root of
the problem begins at home and how a child is raised.
You're right, you're going to be flamed because you deserve it,
you ignorant boob. He was mentally ill, not undisciplined. If
you want disciplined, how about Matthew Murray, the home-schooled
nut case who shot up two churches in Colorado? How about
Seung-Hui Cho? He was mentally ill his whole life. His family
knew it and tried to get him help, but it didn't work.

What these shootings have in common is not family background.
It's the fact that they were mentally ill, off their medication
and armed with deadly force.
genie
2008-02-16 03:12:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugh Gibbons
In article
m>,
Post by genie
I know I will be flamed for saying so, but I truly believe the root of
the problem begins at home and how a child is raised.
You're right, you're going to be flamed because you deserve it,
you ignorant boob.  He was mentally ill, not undisciplined.  If
you want disciplined, how about Matthew Murray, the home-schooled
nut case who shot up two churches in Colorado?  How about
Seung-Hui Cho?  He was mentally ill his whole life.  His family
knew it and tried to get him help, but it didn't work.
What these shootings have in common is not family background.  
It's the fact that they were mentally ill, off their medication
and armed with deadly force.
Growing up without family structure, or in an abusive family can cause
mental illness. Happens all the time.
Hugh Gibbons
2008-02-16 04:36:03 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by genie
,
Post by Hugh Gibbons
In article
m>,
Post by genie
I know I will be flamed for saying so, but I truly believe the root of
the problem begins at home and how a child is raised.
You're right, you're going to be flamed because you deserve it,
you ignorant boob.  He was mentally ill, not undisciplined.  If
you want disciplined, how about Matthew Murray, the home-schooled
nut case who shot up two churches in Colorado?  How about
Seung-Hui Cho?  He was mentally ill his whole life.  His family
knew it and tried to get him help, but it didn't work.
What these shootings have in common is not family background.  
It's the fact that they were mentally ill, off their medication
and armed with deadly force.
Growing up without family structure, or in an abusive family can cause
mental illness. Happens all the time.
It CAN, but it DOESN'T APPLY in any of the cases I mentioned.
You claim the majority of cases are due to your pet cause. Well,
go ahead and show me the stats, smart boy.
genie
2008-02-16 13:49:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugh Gibbons
In article
Post by genie
,
Post by Hugh Gibbons
In article
m>,
Post by genie
I know I will be flamed for saying so, but I truly believe the root of
the problem begins at home and how a child is raised.
You're right, you're going to be flamed because you deserve it,
you ignorant boob.  He was mentally ill, not undisciplined.  If
you want disciplined, how about Matthew Murray, the home-schooled
nut case who shot up two churches in Colorado?  How about
Seung-Hui Cho?  He was mentally ill his whole life.  His family
knew it and tried to get him help, but it didn't work.
What these shootings have in common is not family background.  
It's the fact that they were mentally ill, off their medication
and armed with deadly force.
Growing up without family structure, or in an abusive family can cause
mental illness. Happens all the time.
It CAN, but it DOESN'T APPLY in any of the cases I mentioned.  
You claim the majority of cases are due to your pet cause.  Well,
go ahead and show me the stats, smart boy.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Perhaps not, but unless you have first hand knowledge of his mind, you
cannot claim, without a doubt, your assumption was THE reason, and is
an opinion just like mine.
Hugh Gibbons
2008-02-16 17:06:03 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by genie
,
Post by Hugh Gibbons
In article
Post by genie
,
Post by Hugh Gibbons
In article
m>,
Post by genie
I know I will be flamed for saying so, but I truly believe the root of
the problem begins at home and how a child is raised.
You're right, you're going to be flamed because you deserve it,
you ignorant boob.  He was mentally ill, not undisciplined.  If
you want disciplined, how about Matthew Murray, the home-schooled
nut case who shot up two churches in Colorado?  How about
Seung-Hui Cho?  He was mentally ill his whole life.  His family
knew it and tried to get him help, but it didn't work.
What these shootings have in common is not family background.  
It's the fact that they were mentally ill, off their medication
and armed with deadly force.
Growing up without family structure, or in an abusive family can cause
mental illness. Happens all the time.
It CAN, but it DOESN'T APPLY in any of the cases I mentioned.  
You claim the majority of cases are due to your pet cause.  Well,
go ahead and show me the stats, smart boy.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Perhaps not, but unless you have first hand knowledge of his mind, you
cannot claim, without a doubt, your assumption was THE reason, and is
an opinion just like mine.
No, my opinion relies on facts. The FACT that he shot up a
classroom full of innocent students is proof. It is not possible
for a person in a normal mental state, whether or not raised by
liberals or conservatives, to gun down a room full of people
without a powerful motive. There is no such motive in his case,
or if there is, it has yet to be revealed. What has been
revealed is that he was on medication, and that when he went off
the medication, people who knew him observed a deteriorating
mental state, which culminated in the murders and suicide.

If you think that a murderous, suicidal psychotic state can be
brought on by being raised by liberal parents or conservative
parents or anything short of horrendous psychological abuse that
is classified as a felony under current law, go ahead and show us
the proof or admit you have no proof and have been blowing smoke
(to put it kindly).
genie
2008-02-16 18:04:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugh Gibbons
In article
Post by genie
,
Post by Hugh Gibbons
In article
Post by genie
,
Post by Hugh Gibbons
In article
m>,
Post by genie
I know I will be flamed for saying so, but I truly believe the root of
the problem begins at home and how a child is raised.
You're right, you're going to be flamed because you deserve it,
you ignorant boob.  He was mentally ill, not undisciplined.  If
you want disciplined, how about Matthew Murray, the home-schooled
nut case who shot up two churches in Colorado?  How about
Seung-Hui Cho?  He was mentally ill his whole life.  His family
knew it and tried to get him help, but it didn't work.
What these shootings have in common is not family background.  
It's the fact that they were mentally ill, off their medication
and armed with deadly force.
Growing up without family structure, or in an abusive family can cause
mental illness. Happens all the time.
It CAN, but it DOESN'T APPLY in any of the cases I mentioned.  
You claim the majority of cases are due to your pet cause.  Well,
go ahead and show me the stats, smart boy.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Perhaps not, but unless you have first hand knowledge of his mind, you
cannot claim, without a doubt, your assumption was THE reason, and is
an opinion just like mine.
No, my opinion relies on facts.  The FACT that he shot up a
classroom full of innocent students is proof.  It is not possible
for a person in a normal mental state, whether or not raised by
liberals or conservatives, to gun down a room full of people
without a powerful motive.  There is no such motive in his case,
or if there is, it has yet to be revealed.  What has been
revealed is that he was on medication, and that when he went off
the medication, people who knew him observed a deteriorating
mental state, which culminated in the murders and suicide.
If you think that a murderous, suicidal psychotic state can be
brought on by being raised by liberal parents or conservative
parents or anything short of horrendous psychological abuse that
is classified as a felony under current law, go ahead and show us
the proof or admit you have no proof and have been  blowing smoke
(to put it kindly).- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Well, yes I do. In fact if a child is not held responsible and
disciplined or shown consequences, do tell me when it is they LEARN
the behavior? Comments made by family & friends, while more credible
than your opinion, are not proved as factual and the REASON he turned
to killing a bunch of people. Even in the event it may be true, your
opinions are no more FACTUAL than any others that are posted here. I
don't think anyone appointed you resident Psychoanalyst and your
opinion is of equal relevance as anyone else's.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-16 21:49:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugh Gibbons
The FACT that he shot up a
classroom full of innocent students is proof. It is not possible
for a person in a normal mental state, whether or not raised by
liberals or conservatives, to gun down a room full of people
without a powerful motive.
People can be persuaded to do all sorts of things. And perhaps he had a
powerful motive.
Post by Hugh Gibbons
What has been
revealed is that he was on medication, and that when he went off
the medication, people who knew him observed a deteriorating
mental state, which culminated in the murders and suicide.
That's not what I read, and the nature of the medication has not been
identified, as far as I know.
Post by Hugh Gibbons
If you think that a murderous, suicidal psychotic state can be
brought on by being raised by liberal parents or conservative
parents or anything short of horrendous psychological abuse that
is classified as a felony under current law, go ahead and show us
the proof or admit you have no proof and have been blowing smoke
(to put it kindly).
My Lai, for one example, and unfortunately it is far from unique.
Governor Swill
2008-02-18 11:26:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Hugh Gibbons
If you think that a murderous, suicidal psychotic state can be
brought on by being raised by liberal parents or conservative
parents or anything short of horrendous psychological abuse that
is classified as a felony under current law, go ahead and show us
the proof or admit you have no proof and have been blowing smoke
(to put it kindly).
My Lai, for one example, and unfortunately it is far from unique.
So Nixon's conservative upbringing resulted in My Lai?

Swill
--
THIS is how we have to win the Iraq War
http://www.wheelchairsforiraqikids.com/
Mxsmanic
2008-02-18 15:48:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Governor Swill
So Nixon's conservative upbringing resulted in My Lai?
I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion.
Governor Swill
2008-02-18 20:44:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Governor Swill
So Nixon's conservative upbringing resulted in My Lai?
I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion.
In reference to your response to Hugh Gibbons who posits a line
between "liberal" vs "conservative" upbringing and people who are
insane regardless of upbringing . . .
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Governor Swill
If you think that a murderous, suicidal psychotic state can be
brought on by being raised by liberal parents or conservative
parents or anything short of horrendous psychological abuse that
is classified as a felony under current law, go ahead and show us
the proof or admit you have no proof and have been blowing smoke
(to put it kindly).
My Lai, for one example, and unfortunately it is far from unique.
The topic is lunatics shooting up innocents in domestic terrorism.
What possible relevance does My Lai have to this?

Swill
--
THIS is how we have to win the Iraq War
http://www.wheelchairsforiraqikids.com/
Mxsmanic
2008-02-18 22:10:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Governor Swill
In reference to your response to Hugh Gibbons who posits a line
between "liberal" vs "conservative" upbringing and people who are
insane regardless of upbringing . . .
I was looking at "anything short of horrendous psychological abuse."
Post by Governor Swill
The topic is lunatics shooting up innocents in domestic terrorism.
What possible relevance does My Lai have to this?
It demonstrated that people who are not mentally ill may still engage in
killing sprees.
Governor Swill
2008-02-17 07:43:00 UTC
Permalink
Hugh Gibbons <***@dontsendmeemail.net> used a stick in the
sand to babble
Post by Hugh Gibbons
Post by genie
Post by Hugh Gibbons
What these shootings have in common is not family background.  
It's the fact that they were mentally ill, off their medication
and armed with deadly force.
Growing up without family structure, or in an abusive family can cause
mental illness. Happens all the time.
It CAN, but it DOESN'T APPLY in any of the cases I mentioned.
You claim the majority of cases are due to your pet cause. Well,
go ahead and show me the stats, smart boy.
It should prove interesting watching a self described conservative
take the liberal position that criminal behavior is a direct result of
deficiencies in child rearing.

Swill
Governor Swill
2008-02-17 07:41:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by genie
Post by Hugh Gibbons
What these shootings have in common is not family background.  
It's the fact that they were mentally ill, off their medication
and armed with deadly force.
Growing up without family structure, or in an abusive family can cause
mental illness. Happens all the time.
Then you know NOTHING of mental illness.

Barack Obama was abandoned by not one, but two fathers, spent much of
his life near poverty and yet he was determined to get an education
and if he died tomorrow, he will have achieved FAR more in life than
your typically advantaged affluent suburban kid who wants nothing more
than to have enough money to show up other people with his coolness
and wealth.

You by far underestimate the predilections of the individual and place
far too much significance on the upraising of the child.

Swill
Mxsmanic
2008-02-16 04:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugh Gibbons
It's the fact that they were mentally ill, off their medication
and armed with deadly force.
This latest guy doesn't sound mentally ill.
Hugh Gibbons
2008-02-16 04:36:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Hugh Gibbons
It's the fact that they were mentally ill, off their medication
and armed with deadly force.
This latest guy doesn't sound mentally ill.
Only because you don't know what you're talking about.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-16 04:43:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugh Gibbons
Only because you don't know what you're talking about.
What information have you seen to indicate that he was mentally ill?
Scott M. Kozel
2008-02-16 04:52:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Hugh Gibbons
Only because you don't know what you're talking about.
What information have you seen to indicate that he was mentally ill?
Because he shot the works.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-16 05:31:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Because he shot the works.
A lot of people will do that when they get angry, if there are guns readily at
hand. Are they all mentally ill?
Pisano
2008-02-16 05:39:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Because he shot the works.
A lot of people will do that when they get angry, if there are guns readily at
hand. Are they all mentally ill?
That precisely is why the right to carry arms is important.

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/

=-=


The chief impact, and the only valid rationale
for gun control is to render the average citizen
defenseless in a world where only criminals and
out-of-control governments are bearing arms.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-16 21:51:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pisano
That precisely is why the right to carry arms is important.
Hmm ... I don't see how that follows.
Post by Pisano
The chief impact, and the only valid rationale
for gun control is to render the average citizen
defenseless in a world where only criminals and
out-of-control governments are bearing arms.
There aren't many people being killed by firearms in countries with strong gun
control. And there _was_ gun control in this case, but an average citizen
managed to buy guns and shoot nearly half a dozen people, just the same, so
clearly gun control does not mean that only criminals and governments are
bearing arms.
Pisano
2008-02-16 22:54:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Pisano
That precisely is why the right to carry arms is important.
Hmm ... I don't see how that follows.
Perhaps if you ever chance to encounter an overwhelming enemy
which is armed with ANY kind of a deadly weapon, including simple
brute physical force, and bent upon your personal destruction, you may
be persuaded to change your mind about that.
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Pisano
The chief impact, and the only valid rationale
for gun control is to render the average citizen
defenseless in a world where only criminals and
out-of-control governments are bearing arms.
There aren't many people being killed by firearms in countries with strong gun
control. And there _was_ gun control in this case, but an average citizen
managed to buy guns and shoot nearly half a dozen people, just the same, so
clearly gun control does not mean that only criminals and governments are
bearing arms.
Which merely confirms the fact that gun control laws are
actually quite ineffective in controlling homicide.


http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html
Mxsmanic
2008-02-17 01:38:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pisano
Which merely confirms the fact that gun control laws are
actually quite ineffective in controlling homicide.
In a society that already has more guns than people, their utility is greatly
reduced.
Pisano
2008-02-17 01:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Pisano
Which merely confirms the fact that gun control laws are
actually quite ineffective in controlling homicide.
In a society that already has more guns than people, their utility is greatly
reduced.
Too bad. If criminals are going to have guns, I want one too.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-17 03:32:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pisano
If criminals are going to have guns, I want one too.
And if criminals kill people, you want to kill people, too?
r***@pdq.net
2008-02-17 03:44:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Pisano
If criminals are going to have guns, I want one too.
And if criminals kill people, you want to kill people, too?
Let me put it this way. If you are not willing to kill people, when it
is truly necessary, you will end up as somebodys slave. If that is OK
with you; well,whatever. But do not presume to offer advice to those
of us who do not accept that outcome.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-17 06:15:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@pdq.net
Let me put it this way. If you are not willing to kill people, when it
is truly necessary, you will end up as somebodys slave.
I'm afraid I cannot agree with that. Many people go through their lives
unwilling to kill people, and yet they do not become slaves, which invalidates
your assertion.
Post by r***@pdq.net
But do not presume to offer advice to those
of us who do not accept that outcome.
Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.
Pisano
2008-02-17 04:41:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Pisano
If criminals are going to have guns, I want one too.
And if criminals kill people, you want to kill people, too?
http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html
Scott M. Kozel
2008-02-16 13:13:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Because he shot the works.
A lot of people will do that when they get angry, if there are guns readily at
hand.
An infinitesimal number of people will do that.
Post by Mxsmanic
Are they all mentally ill?
Yes. And psychotic.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-16 21:52:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott M. Kozel
An infinitesimal number of people will do that.
People do it all day long, as anyone familiar with domestic violence and
alcohol can attest.
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Yes. And psychotic.
Mentally ill in what ways? Most of the gunmen I've read about recently showed
no signs of psychosis.
Scott M. Kozel
2008-02-17 03:23:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scott M. Kozel
An infinitesimal number of people will do that.
People do it all day long, as anyone familiar with domestic violence and
alcohol can attest.
Nonsense!! No more than 0.0000001% of the population
crack up and start shooting people randomly.
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Yes. And psychotic.
Mentally ill in what ways? Most of the gunmen I've read about recently showed
no signs of psychosis.
A person who starts shooting people randomly, fits within the
definition:

psychosis - "A mental state caused by psychiatric or organic illness,
characterized by a loss of contact with reality and an inability to
think rationally. A psychotic person often behaves inappropriately and
is incapable of normal social functioning."
Mxsmanic
2008-02-17 03:33:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Nonsense!! No more than 0.0000001% of the population
crack up and start shooting people randomly.
Perhaps, but shooting people is very common. Some random shooting incidents
that don't result in deaths are not widely reported.
Post by Scott M. Kozel
A person who starts shooting people randomly, fits within the
psychosis - "A mental state caused by psychiatric or organic illness,
characterized by a loss of contact with reality and an inability to
think rationally. A psychotic person often behaves inappropriately and
is incapable of normal social functioning."
There is no loss of contact with reality in this case, and so psychosis does
not apply.
Scott M. Kozel
2008-02-17 04:28:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Nonsense!! No more than 0.0000001% of the population
crack up and start shooting people randomly.
Perhaps, but shooting people is very common.
Nonsense!! No more than 0.000001% of the population shoot people.
Post by Mxsmanic
Some random shooting incidents
that don't result in deaths are not widely reported.
Post by Scott M. Kozel
A person who starts shooting people randomly, fits within the
psychosis - "A mental state caused by psychiatric or organic illness,
characterized by a loss of contact with reality and an inability to
think rationally. A psychotic person often behaves inappropriately and
is incapable of normal social functioning."
There is no loss of contact with reality in this case, and so psychosis does
not apply.
A person who starts shooting people randomly, is out of contact with
reality, demonstrates an inability to think rationally, behaves
inappropriately, and demonstrates that he is incapable of normal social
functioning.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-17 06:16:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Nonsense!! No more than 0.000001% of the population shoot people.
There are thousands of shootings every day in the USA.
Post by Scott M. Kozel
A person who starts shooting people randomly, is out of contact with
reality, demonstrates an inability to think rationally, behaves
inappropriately, and demonstrates that he is incapable of normal social
functioning.
Unfortunately, that is not necessarily true.
Scott M. Kozel
2008-02-17 12:40:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
There are thousands of shootings every day in the USA.
More nonsense. That would be over a million per year.
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scott M. Kozel
A person who starts shooting people randomly, is out of contact with
reality, demonstrates an inability to think rationally, behaves
inappropriately, and demonstrates that he is incapable of normal social
functioning.
Unfortunately, that is not necessarily true.
Unlikely to ever not be true.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-17 16:41:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott M. Kozel
More nonsense. That would be over a million per year.
The actual figure is hard to pin down, but it's probably around a
quarter-million per year.
Scott M. Kozel
2008-02-17 17:10:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scott M. Kozel
More nonsense. That would be over a million per year.
The actual figure is hard to pin down, but it's probably around a
quarter-million per year.
It is not "hard to pin down". You're spewing nonsense.
Hugh Gibbons
2008-02-18 05:51:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Nonsense!! No more than 0.000001% of the population shoot people.
There are thousands of shootings every day in the USA.
Post by Scott M. Kozel
A person who starts shooting people randomly, is out of contact with
reality, demonstrates an inability to think rationally, behaves
inappropriately, and demonstrates that he is incapable of normal social
functioning.
Unfortunately, that is not necessarily true.
Why don't you explain, for those of us who don't understand, how
a person who is in contact with reality rationally makes the
decision to behave appropriately and exhibit the normal social
functioning of shooting people at random?
Mxsmanic
2008-02-18 15:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugh Gibbons
Why don't you explain, for those of us who don't understand, how
a person who is in contact with reality rationally makes the
decision to behave appropriately and exhibit the normal social
functioning of shooting people at random?
A considerable body of research indicates that people will behave in
exceptional ways in exceptional circumstances. That doesn't make them
mentally ill.
Scott M. Kozel
2008-02-18 16:03:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Hugh Gibbons
Why don't you explain, for those of us who don't understand, how
a person who is in contact with reality rationally makes the
decision to behave appropriately and exhibit the normal social
functioning of shooting people at random?
A considerable body of research indicates that people will behave in
exceptional ways in exceptional circumstances. That doesn't make them
mentally ill.
There is no "exceptional circumstance" that justifies shooting people at
random, and there is no sane rationale for shooting people at random.
Governor Swill
2008-02-18 20:44:33 UTC
Permalink
"Scott M. Kozel" <***@comcast.net> used a stick in the sand to
babble
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Hugh Gibbons
Why don't you explain, for those of us who don't understand, how
a person who is in contact with reality rationally makes the
decision to behave appropriately and exhibit the normal social
functioning of shooting people at random?
A considerable body of research indicates that people will behave in
exceptional ways in exceptional circumstances. That doesn't make them
mentally ill.
There is no "exceptional circumstance" that justifies shooting people at
random, and there is no sane rationale for shooting people at random.
Or for shooting oneself afterwards.

Swill
--
THIS is how we have to win the Iraq War
http://www.wheelchairsforiraqikids.com/
Mxsmanic
2008-02-18 22:11:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott M. Kozel
There is no "exceptional circumstance" that justifies shooting people at
random, and there is no sane rationale for shooting people at random.
I didn't say anything about justification. I simply pointed out that people
will behave in exceptional ways in exceptional circumstances. And you don't
know whether he was shooting people at random or not.

Pisano
2008-02-17 04:43:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Nonsense!! No more than 0.0000001% of the population
crack up and start shooting people randomly.
Perhaps, but shooting people is very common. Some random shooting incidents
that don't result in deaths are not widely reported.
Post by Scott M. Kozel
A person who starts shooting people randomly, fits within the
psychosis - "A mental state caused by psychiatric or organic illness,
characterized by a loss of contact with reality and an inability to
think rationally. A psychotic person often behaves inappropriately and
is incapable of normal social functioning."
There is no loss of contact with reality in this case, and so psychosis does
not apply.
http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html
Hugh Gibbons
2008-02-17 04:31:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scott M. Kozel
An infinitesimal number of people will do that.
People do it all day long, as anyone familiar with domestic violence and
alcohol can attest.
Nonsense!! No more than 0.0000001% of the population
crack up and start shooting people randomly.
If that was true, it would be decades between events.
Scott M. Kozel
2008-02-17 04:58:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugh Gibbons
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scott M. Kozel
An infinitesimal number of people will do that.
People do it all day long, as anyone familiar with domestic violence and
alcohol can attest.
Nonsense!! No more than 0.0000001% of the population
crack up and start shooting people randomly.
If that was true, it would be decades between events.
Incorrect. That would be about 30 times per year in the 300 million
population U.S.
Hugh Gibbons
2008-02-17 06:02:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by Hugh Gibbons
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scott M. Kozel
An infinitesimal number of people will do that.
People do it all day long, as anyone familiar with domestic violence and
alcohol can attest.
Nonsense!! No more than 0.0000001% of the population
crack up and start shooting people randomly.
If that was true, it would be decades between events.
Incorrect. That would be about 30 times per year in the 300 million
population U.S.
Nope. Do your math again. 300 million x 0.0000001% = 0.3.
And you said 0.0000001% of the population will do it, not that
fraction per year. Did you mean something that's about a
thousand times more than what you said? Because if you did, you
should have said what you meant.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-17 06:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Incorrect. That would be about 30 times per year in the 300 million
population U.S.
No, that would be 30 people in the USA. If they only shoot once in their
lifetimes, it would be many years between incidents.
Hugh Gibbons
2008-02-16 16:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Because he shot the works.
A lot of people will do that when they get angry, if there are guns readily at
hand. Are they all mentally ill?
Obviously.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-16 21:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugh Gibbons
Obviously.
If someone hits you when he gets angry, is he mentally ill?
Hugh Gibbons
2008-02-17 04:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Hugh Gibbons
Obviously.
If someone hits you when he gets angry, is he mentally ill?
We are not talking about hitting, we are talking about multiple
homicide and suicide.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-17 06:18:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugh Gibbons
We are not talking about hitting, we are talking about multiple
homicide and suicide.
They are all forms of violence. And you haven't answered my question.
Hugh Gibbons
2008-02-17 20:09:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Hugh Gibbons
We are not talking about hitting, we are talking about multiple
homicide and suicide.
They are all forms of violence. And you haven't answered my question.
You should learn to expect that when you ask irrelevant questions
intended to sidetrack the conversation.
r***@pdq.net
2008-02-16 17:01:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Scott M. Kozel
Because he shot the works.
A lot of people will do that when they get angry, if there are guns readily at
hand.  Are they all mentally ill?
Many states in the US have made carrying guns by ordinary civilians
more feasible and legal over the past few decades. In no case did
crime increase, in most cases, it went down. One can argue about
theory forever if one wants; but one cannot in good faith argue that
more guns around = more gun crime. The experiment has been done.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-16 21:54:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@pdq.net
Many states in the US have made carrying guns by ordinary civilians
more feasible and legal over the past few decades. In no case did
crime increase, in most cases, it went down. One can argue about
theory forever if one wants; but one cannot in good faith argue that
more guns around = more gun crime. The experiment has been done.
Since guns have been plentiful in the U.S. since time immemorial, I'm not sure
what that proves.

Guns in a non-violent society are not a problem. A violent society without
guns isn't necessarily a problem, either. But a violent society with guns is
a big problem, and that's what the United States is.
Pisano
2008-02-16 22:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by r***@pdq.net
Many states in the US have made carrying guns by ordinary civilians
more feasible and legal over the past few decades. In no case did
crime increase, in most cases, it went down. One can argue about
theory forever if one wants; but one cannot in good faith argue that
more guns around = more gun crime. The experiment has been done.
Since guns have been plentiful in the U.S. since time immemorial, I'm not sure
what that proves.
Guns in a non-violent society are not a problem. A violent society without
guns isn't necessarily a problem, either. But a violent society with guns is
a big problem, and that's what the United States is.
http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html
r***@pdq.net
2008-02-17 02:44:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by r***@pdq.net
Many states in the US have made carrying guns by ordinary civilians
more feasible and legal over the past few decades. In no case did
crime increase, in most cases, it went down. One can argue about
theory forever if one wants; but one cannot in good faith argue that
more guns around = more gun crime. The experiment has been done.
Since guns have been plentiful in the U.S. since time immemorial, I'm not sure
what that proves.
Guns in a non-violent society are not a problem.  A violent society without
guns isn't necessarily a problem, either.  But a violent society with guns is
a big problem, and that's what the United States is.
       http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html
In this country, the US of A, the operative word is freedom. If we
had to choose between more freedom or more violence, we choose freedom
every time. Maybe its genetic. After all, it was not a random slice of
the European population that got onto leaky wooden boats to cross the
Atlantic ocean for the opportunity to confront the savage aboriginal
inhabitants of an untamed land..
r***@pdq.net
2008-02-17 02:55:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by r***@pdq.net
Many states in the US have made carrying guns by ordinary civilians
more feasible and legal over the past few decades. In no case did
crime increase, in most cases, it went down. One can argue about
theory forever if one wants; but one cannot in good faith argue that
more guns around = more gun crime. The experiment has been done.
Since guns have been plentiful in the U.S. since time immemorial, I'm not sure
what that proves.
Guns in a non-violent society are not a problem.  A violent society without
guns isn't necessarily a problem, either.  But a violent society with guns is
a big problem, and that's what the United States is.
       http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html
In this  country, the US of A, the operative word is freedom. If we
had to choose between more freedom or more violence, we choose freedom
every time. Maybe its genetic. After all, it was not a random slice of
the European population that got onto leaky wooden boats to cross the
Atlantic ocean for the opportunity to confront the savage aboriginal
inhabitants of an untamed land..- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Actually, I should have said that we would choose more freedom over
LESS violence. That is just the way we are. Just ask the various
people who have endeavored to limit our freedoms...
Mxsmanic
2008-02-17 03:36:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@pdq.net
Actually, I should have said that we would choose more freedom over
LESS violence. That is just the way we are. Just ask the various
people who have endeavored to limit our freedoms...
Your President has been reducing your freedoms for eight years, and I don't
see any popular resistance to that at all.
r***@pdq.net
2008-02-17 03:50:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by r***@pdq.net
Actually, I should have said that we would choose more freedom over
LESS violence. That is just the way we are. Just ask the various
people who have endeavored to limit our freedoms...
Your President has been reducing your freedoms for eight years, and I don't
see any popular resistance to that at all.
George the 2nd is very soon not going to be the President. Thanks
be to god.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-17 06:18:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@pdq.net
George the 2nd is very soon not going to be the President. Thanks
be to god.
Much of the damage is already done. Nobody stood in its way.
r***@pdq.net
2008-02-17 18:23:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@pdq.net
George the 2nd is very soon not going to be the President. Thanks
be to god.
Much of the damage is already done.  Nobody stood in its way.
In the US, there has been a recurring theme of the back and forth
nature of civil liberties.Many times, ill advised restrictive laws
have been enacted in a fit of paranoia and pretty soon after get
undone after further scrutiny as to constitutionality or just a return
of common sense. For example, there were several quite
unconstitutional laws limiting free speech during the First World War.
They were enforced for a few years and then removed after further
judicial review. That is just how it works here. Not always pretty, to
be sure, but it does mean that "damage" to civil liberties is not a
permanent thing.
The actual incidence of killings in this country for no apparent
motive - like school shootings - is quite infintesimal. The numbers
who die this way are so small that there is virtually no effect on
overall crime statistics despite the intense publicity each case
generates.
And no one here seems to have noticed that these actions are
almost always a form of suicide. That should be a hint as to the state
of mind of the perps. It should also teach us just how hard they are
to prevent. I mean, how easy is it to prevent suicide bombings in the
Middle East?
Mxsmanic
2008-02-17 18:33:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@pdq.net
The actual incidence of killings in this country for no apparent
motive - like school shootings - is quite infintesimal. The numbers
who die this way are so small that there is virtually no effect on
overall crime statistics despite the intense publicity each case
generates.
There's a great deal of skewing in the media.

For example, I noticed that five people were killed in this latest incident,
and the media talk about it constantly. However, at the same time, I saw a
tiny little article about a drag-racing incident that killed eight innocent
bystanders--a 60% greater death toll than the school shooting--and yet it has
been practically ignored. I guess those eight innocent people killed by a car
are far less important than the five people killed by a gun.
Post by r***@pdq.net
And no one here seems to have noticed that these actions are
almost always a form of suicide. That should be a hint as to the state
of mind of the perps.
It's a hint that they are suicidal. However, lots of people become suicidal
without harming anyone else (and most of them never commit suicide, either).

The real problem is not the mental state of these individuals, but the fact
that ready access to guns allows them to easily kill people when they are in
the mood to do so (whatever the origin of that mood). The fact is, if there
had been no guns available, nobody would have died. There's no way this
person could have killed five people and injured twenty-one with a switchblade
or a baseball bat. Guns allow you to kill people with high efficiency at
great distance, and no other readily available weapons permit that. A person
who becomes temporarily or permanently unstable and reaches for a bag of rocks
isn't much of a threat, but if he reaches for an automatic weapon or even a
simple handgun, he becomes very dangerous.

As I've already indicated, it's not that guns themselves are dangerous, nor
are mere violent tendencies necessarily the problem. The problem is the
combination of readily-available guns with violent behavior, and the U.S. has
that unfortunate combination.

Outside the U.S., movie posters for American movies are easy to spot, because
no matter what the movie is about, there's often a person in the poster
holding a gun. And when you watch these movies, you see that violence, guns,
and drugs have very prominent roles, even in places where you wouldn't
normally expect to see them. It says a lot about the society.
r***@pdq.net
2008-02-17 19:22:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by r***@pdq.net
The actual incidence of killings in this country for no apparent
motive - like school shootings - is quite infintesimal. The numbers
who die this way are so small that  there is virtually no effect on
overall crime statistics despite the intense publicity each case
generates.
There's a great deal of skewing in the media.
For example, I noticed that five people were killed in this latest incident,
and the media talk about it constantly.  However, at the same time, I saw a
tiny little article about a drag-racing incident that killed eight innocent
bystanders--a 60% greater death toll than the school shooting--and yet it has
been practically ignored.  I guess those eight innocent people killed by a car
are far less important than the five people killed by a gun.
Post by r***@pdq.net
And no one here seems to have noticed that these actions are
almost always a form of suicide. That should be a hint as to the state
of mind of the perps.
It's a hint that they are suicidal.  However, lots of people become suicidal
without harming anyone else (and most of them never commit suicide, either).
The real problem is not the mental state of these individuals, but the fact
that ready access to guns allows them to easily kill people when they are in
the mood to do so (whatever the origin of that mood).  The fact is, if there
had been no guns available, nobody would have died.  There's no way this
person could have killed five people and injured twenty-one with a switchblade
or a baseball bat.  Guns allow you to kill people with high efficiency at
great distance, and no other readily available weapons permit that.  A person
who becomes temporarily or permanently unstable and reaches for a bag of rocks
isn't much of a threat, but if he reaches for an automatic weapon or even a
simple handgun, he becomes very dangerous.
That is true, as far it goes. But this scenario is extremely
rare when put in the context of a large country. People die in lots of
ways here, one could say that we are even killed in lots of ways, but
crazed strangers with a gun is not high on the list of causes - to put
it mildly.
Post by Mxsmanic
As I've already indicated, it's not that guns themselves are dangerous, nor
are mere violent tendencies necessarily the problem.  The problem is the
combination of readily-available guns with violent behavior, and the U.S. has
that unfortunate combination.
Outside the U.S., movie posters for American movies are easy to spot, because
no matter what the movie is about, there's often a person in the poster
holding a gun.  And when you watch these movies, you see that violence, guns,
and drugs have very prominent roles, even in places where you wouldn't
normally expect to see them. It says a lot about the society.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-17 20:49:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@pdq.net
That is true, as far it goes. But this scenario is extremely
rare when put in the context of a large country. People die in lots of
ways here, one could say that we are even killed in lots of ways, but
crazed strangers with a gun is not high on the list of causes - to put
it mildly.
True ... but gun violence and homicide is an everyday occurrence in the U.S.
The country has the highest per capita homicide rate in the industrialized
world, and the great majority of those homicides are committed with guns.
k***@gmail.com
2008-02-17 22:45:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by r***@pdq.net
That is true, as far it goes. But this scenario is extremely
rare when put in the context of a large country. People die in lots of
ways here, one could say that we are even killed in lots of ways, but
crazed strangers with a gun is not high on the list of causes - to put
it mildly.
True ... but gun violence and homicide is an everyday occurrence in the U.S.
The country has the highest per capita homicide rate in the industrialized
world, and the great majority of those homicides are committed with guns.
And so are defensive gun uses, which rational, law abiding citizens
use to repel and prevent serious or murderous crimes.



http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html
Mxsmanic
2008-02-18 01:10:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@gmail.com
And so are defensive gun uses, which rational, law abiding citizens
use to repel and prevent serious or murderous crimes.
Strange that nobody seems to need this outside the U.S.
Pisano
2008-02-18 01:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by k***@gmail.com
And so are defensive gun uses, which rational, law abiding citizens
use to repel and prevent serious or murderous crimes.
Strange that nobody seems to need this outside the U.S.
Really?
r***@pdq.net
2008-02-18 02:21:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by k***@gmail.com
And so are defensive gun uses, which rational, law abiding citizens
use to repel and prevent serious or murderous crimes.
Strange that nobody seems to need this outside the U.S.
Now you are being naive. There are many places where keeping/carrying
guns is common, regardless of what the local laws might stipulate. It
is not human nature to choose to remain helpless in the face of
threats.
Less than 100 years ago, G. Britain had no gun laws, many people
carried pistols, and the crime rate was a fraction of what it is now.
Of course, nothing about cause/effect is that simple, but that
insight should cut both ways.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-18 15:51:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@pdq.net
Now you are being naive. There are many places where keeping/carrying
guns is common, regardless of what the local laws might stipulate.
In which industrialized countries, other than the United States, is this
common? (In fact, it's extremely rare even in the U.S.)
Post by r***@pdq.net
It is not human nature to choose to remain helpless in the face of
threats.
Not having a gun is not the same as being helpless.
Post by r***@pdq.net
Less than 100 years ago, G. Britain had no gun laws, many people
carried pistols, and the crime rate was a fraction of what it is now.
Just for comparison, what were the crime rates back then and now?
r***@pdq.net
2008-02-17 23:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by r***@pdq.net
That is true, as far it goes. But this scenario is extremely
rare when put in the context of a large country. People die in lots of
ways here, one could say that we are even killed in lots of ways, but
crazed strangers with a gun is not high on the list of causes - to put
it mildly.
True ... but gun violence and homicide is an everyday occurrence in the U.S.
The country has the highest per capita homicide rate in the industrialized
world, and the great majority of those homicides are committed with guns.
Personally, I think that good gun control is very important,
especially these days. Ammo is getting so expensive you really don't
want to waste any by missing your target.
Hugh Gibbons
2008-02-18 06:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
There's a great deal of skewing in the media.
For example, I noticed that five people were killed in this latest incident,
and the media talk about it constantly. However, at the same time, I saw a
tiny little article about a drag-racing incident that killed eight innocent
bystanders--a 60% greater death toll than the school shooting--and yet it has
been practically ignored. I guess those eight innocent people killed by a car
are far less important than the five people killed by a gun.
It's human nature. Murder grabs the psyche harder than
accidental death, and gives it a nasty shake. The media are,
after all, human beings, and the reporters and producers are just
as affected by that aspect of human nature as the rest of us.
It hardly seems fair to fault them for a feature all of us share,
except when they blatantly exploit it for ratings -- which they
sometimes do, but I don't see it as having risen to that level in
this case.

That said, it's actually unusual for a shooting story to be
picked up by the national media.
Mxsmanic
2008-02-17 03:35:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@pdq.net
In this country, the US of A, the operative word is freedom. If we
had to choose between more freedom or more violence, we choose freedom
every time.
Then why do you give up your civil liberties in exchange for promises of
security against vague bogeymen? While you worry about having your guns taken
away, your freedoms are being eliminated one by one. Once there are no
freedoms left, having guns won't make any difference.
Post by r***@pdq.net
Maybe its genetic. After all, it was not a random slice of
the European population that got onto leaky wooden boats to cross the
Atlantic ocean for the opportunity to confront the savage aboriginal
inhabitants of an untamed land..
Maybe. But the courage that Americans have shown throughout most of their
history seems to have disappeared now.
Pisano
2008-02-17 05:06:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by r***@pdq.net
In this country, the US of A, the operative word is freedom. If we
had to choose between more freedom or more violence, we choose freedom
every time.
Then why do you give up your civil liberties in exchange for promises of
security against vague bogeymen? While you worry about having your guns taken
away, your freedoms are being eliminated one by one. Once there are no
freedoms left, having guns won't make any difference.
Post by r***@pdq.net
Maybe its genetic. After all, it was not a random slice of
the European population that got onto leaky wooden boats to cross the
Atlantic ocean for the opportunity to confront the savage aboriginal
inhabitants of an untamed land..
Maybe. But the courage that Americans have shown throughout most of their
history seems to have disappeared now.
Have you seen this:


Alex Jones - "Terrorstorm":

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5948263607579389947


From: http://www.infowars.com/



See also from Alex Jones:


"ENDGAME: Blueprint for Global Enslavement"


Here is a link to it on his website:

http://www.endgamethemovie.com/


Here is a link to the complete film on Google videos:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1070329053600562261


A Hi-res version is also available for download there.
Avenger
2008-02-17 06:13:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pisano
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by r***@pdq.net
In this country, the US of A, the operative word is freedom. If we
had to choose between more freedom or more violence, we choose freedom
every time.
Then why do you give up your civil liberties in exchange for promises of
security against vague bogeymen? While you worry about having your guns taken
away, your freedoms are being eliminated one by one. Once there are no
freedoms left, having guns won't make any difference.
Post by r***@pdq.net
Maybe its genetic.
It is genetic in large part. Most immigrants were from the bottom of their
societies. They were the incompetent, less intelligent and beaten people on
the whole. They're living on the ideas and legacy of a tiny handful of
aristocratic landowners who formed the US. Only the most desperate, not
adventuous, went to the US.


After all, it was not a random slice of
Post by Pisano
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by r***@pdq.net
the European population that got onto leaky wooden boats to cross the
Atlantic ocean for the opportunity to confront the savage aboriginal
inhabitants of an untamed land..
Maybe. But the courage that Americans have shown throughout most of their
history seems to have disappeared now.
That's because the original English inhabitants are now a minority.
Post by Pisano
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5948263607579389947
From: http://www.infowars.com/
"ENDGAME: Blueprint for Global Enslavement"
http://www.endgamethemovie.com/
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1070329053600562261
A Hi-res version is also available for download there.
Pisano
2008-02-17 04:29:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@pdq.net
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by r***@pdq.net
Many states in the US have made carrying guns by ordinary civilians
more feasible and legal over the past few decades. In no case did
crime increase, in most cases, it went down. One can argue about
theory forever if one wants; but one cannot in good faith argue that
more guns around = more gun crime. The experiment has been done.
Since guns have been plentiful in the U.S. since time immemorial, I'm not sure
what that proves.
Guns in a non-violent society are not a problem.  A violent society without
guns isn't necessarily a problem, either.  But a violent society with guns is
a big problem, and that's what the United States is.
       http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html
In this country, the US of A, the operative word is freedom. If we
had to choose between more freedom or more violence, we choose freedom
every time. Maybe its genetic. After all, it was not a random slice of
the European population that got onto leaky wooden boats to cross the
Atlantic ocean for the opportunity to confront the savage aboriginal
inhabitants of an untamed land..
That is correct.

Have you seen this:


Alex Jones - "Terrorstorm":

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5948263607579389947


From: http://www.infowars.com/
Hugh Gibbons
2008-02-16 16:49:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Hugh Gibbons
Only because you don't know what you're talking about.
What information have you seen to indicate that he was mentally ill?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/16/us/16gunman.html?em&ex=120331080
0&en=5d3fa8bac7308ab6&ei=5087%0A
"Family members told the authorities that Mr. Kazmierczak had
stopped taking his medication. Law enforcement authorities would
not say what the medication was for, but said Mr. Kazmierczak had
grown erratic, according to his family, in the days after he quit
taking the drugs."
Mxsmanic
2008-02-16 21:55:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugh Gibbons
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/16/us/16gunman.html?em&ex=120331080
0&en=5d3fa8bac7308ab6&ei=5087%0A
"Family members told the authorities that Mr. Kazmierczak had
stopped taking his medication. Law enforcement authorities would
not say what the medication was for, but said Mr. Kazmierczak had
grown erratic, according to his family, in the days after he quit
taking the drugs."
So we don't know what medication it was or what it was for, which means that
we cannot conclude that he was mentally ill.
Governor Swill
2008-02-17 07:45:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mxsmanic
Post by Hugh Gibbons
Only because you don't know what you're talking about.
What information have you seen to indicate that he was mentally ill?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/16/university.shooting/index.html
"He also told a friend that he was given a psychological discharge
from the Army after six months in the service in 2001-2002, according
to the AP."

Do you really think anybody could do something like that and NOT be
insane?

Swill
Mxsmanic
2008-02-17 16:48:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Governor Swill
Do you really think anybody could do something like that and NOT be
insane?
Yes. Non-specialists have a tendency to assert that anyone who behaves in a
way out of the ordinary is automatically "crazy" or "mentally ill" or
"insane." Unfortunately, that is not the case. Some people may well meet the
criteria for a successful insanity defense, many others will not. They may
not even have a record of any type of mental illness. Furthermore, a large
part of the population receives some sort of counseling or treatment for mild
mental illness (remember, even anxiety or depression count as mental illness),
and yet most people do not go on shooting sprees.

It is very simplistic to assume that all people who shoot other people are
nutcases, and it is dangerous as well, since it implies that anyone who isn't
seriously insane will never shoot anyone, and that isn't a safe assumption, as
the statistics show.
Governor Swill
2008-02-17 07:32:32 UTC
Permalink
Hugh Gibbons <***@dontsendmeemail.net> used a stick in the
sand to babble
Post by Hugh Gibbons
In article
m>,
Post by genie
I know I will be flamed for saying so, but I truly believe the root of
the problem begins at home and how a child is raised.
You're right, you're going to be flamed because you deserve it,
you ignorant boob. He was mentally ill, not undisciplined. If
you want disciplined, how about Matthew Murray, the home-schooled
nut case who shot up two churches in Colorado? How about
Seung-Hui Cho? He was mentally ill his whole life. His family
knew it and tried to get him help, but it didn't work.
What these shootings have in common is not family background.
It's the fact that they were mentally ill, off their medication
and armed with deadly force.
*applause*

I said it more gently tho'. ;-)

Swill
Governor Swill
2008-02-17 07:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by genie
Post by S***@hotmail.com
And please..... in the article the gender of the "gunperson" is stated
to be male so just say GUNMAN. Using the word MAN is not a sin you
know!!!
Christ I hate political correctness!
I know I will be flamed for saying so, but I truly believe the root of
the problem begins at home and how a child is raised. The liberal idea
of upbringing, no discipline, no guidance or limitations, instant
gratification, no consequences for bad behavior, no structure
including lack parental presence for demonstration of morality,
instruction in community well being, and giving the child nothing
worthy of emulating other than game heroes, musicians, or ledge-headed
athletes. Then shuffling them off to school to be raised by teachers
for 12 years, who are busy ignoring their own kids.
First, you will notice "gunperson" was added by the poster. It was
not in the original article.

Second, many liberals would state the case that he is the perfect
example of a conservative upbringing and bring up their many
misconstrued reasons they think so just as you have. For example you
assume that "liberal" political attitudes equal allowing children to
run rampant without guidance or controls. Yet I have known political
liberals who consider that a conservative parenting trait. That
conservatives teach their children they can do anything they can get
away with as long as their stick is bigger.

Such misconceptions arise because people identify with this or that
dogma and refuse to have open and honest discussion with others. I
was always taught that openness and honesty was a conservative trait
and yet I see very, very often that those who call themselves
conservatives would label as liberal anybody who used the phrase "open
and honest dialog". Is this a tacit admission by conservatives that
to be conservative is to lie or refuse to talk about problems?

I doubt it. It's just another cop out, another admission that it's
easier to carry a label and a list of positions than to learn what the
world is really all about.

Swill
Hugh Gibbons
2008-02-16 01:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@hotmail.com
What is a "gunperson"?
This is a terrible tragedy. That a "gunperson" can transfer their rage
and disapointment to this type of action simply speaks to the weakness
of our society. WHen the ability to care for it's self is taken away
from a society people feel helpless. When they feel helpless they
strike back like this.
There's no indication that he as motivated by the "weakness of
our society" or that he was made to feel helpless. He was a very
successful graduate student and probably had great job offers.
But he was psychotic, went off his meds, bought some guns and
went on a rampage.
ElParedon
2008-02-16 02:00:57 UTC
Permalink
Wrong! Polak this time!
Post by Dr. Lippschitz
DEKALB, Illinois (CNN) -- A gunperson dressed in black stepped from behind
a curtain at the front of a large lecture hall at Northern Illinois
University on Thursday and shot 21 people, five of them fatally, then shot
and killed himself, said university president John Peters.
Rescue workers carry a victim from Cole Hall Thursday after a gunperson
shot 21 people during a geology class.
Four died at the scene, including the shooter, and two later died at the
hospital, he said.
At least 22 people, including a graduate student who was teaching an ocean
sciences class, were shot, Peters said.
Seventeen victims were taken to Kishwaukee Community Hospital, its Web
site said.
Of those, six were in critical condition and were flown to other
hospitals. One fatality, a man, was confirmed -- but was not the
gunperson, the hospital said. Two were admitted, and three others were
discharged. The other five were not addressed on the Web site.
Four of the fatalities were female, said Peters.
Most of the injuries are head and chest gunshot wounds, a hospital
spokeswoman told CNN.
The gunperson started shooting from a stage in the room shortly after 3
p.m. (4 p.m. ET) in Cole Hall, officials said.
Police Chief Donald Grady said authorities do not yet know of a motive.
They know the identity of the gunperson but have not released his name,
Grady added.
The shooter was a graduate student at NIU in the spring of 2007. Currently
he was not enrolled there but, Grady said, "He may have been a student
elsewhere."
Kevin McEnery said he was in the classroom when the gunperson, dressed in
a black shirt, dark pants and black hat, burst in carrying a shotgun. See
photos of the scene »
"He just kicked the door open, just started shooting," said McEnery, who
was in the class at the time. "All I really heard was just people
screaming, yelling 'get out.' ... Close to 30 shots were fired." Watch a
student describe the chaos at the scene »
There are about 162 registered students in the class that met in the large
lecture hall.
A student described the classroom as having four exits - two at the front
and two at the rear. "Witnesses say someone dressed in black came out from
behind a screen in the front of the classroom and opened fire with a
shotgun," Peters said.
At 3:03 p.m., NIU police responded, and four minutes later, the campus was
ordered into "a lockdown situation," Grady said.
At 3:20, an all-campus alert went out via the campus Web site, e-mail,
voice mail, the campus crisis hotline, the news media and various alarm
systems, he said.
Don't Miss
a.. WQAD: See local coverage of shooting
b.. WLS: More local coverage of shooting
"The message basically was: There's a gunperson on campus, stay where you
are, make yourself as safe as possible," he said.
Rosie Moroni, a student at the school, told CNN she was outside Cole Hall
near the King Commons when she heard shots coming from the classroom she
was heading to.
The shot was followed by "a lot of people screaming," then people ran out
the doors yelling, "He's got a gun, call 9-1-1," she said.
"It was complete chaos. It's very scary here right now."
By 4 p.m., DeKalb police had swept the area "and determined there was only
one gunperson" and that he was dead.
Grady said the man used three guns: a shotgun, a Glock handgun and a
small-caliber handgun, and was still on the stage when he turned one of
the guns on himself. The small-caliber handgun has not been recovered, he
said.
The shooter started with a shotgun, then switched to a handgun, said Grady.
A spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives told
CNN that agents were on the scene, and could help trace the weapon or
weapons used. Peters said the FBI is processing the crime scene and ATF
was interviewing witnesses Thursday.
Events and classes were canceled until further notice, Peters said.
Seven counseling areas were set up throughout the campus, and hotlines
were established.
Security around campus was increased in December when police found threats
scrawled on a campus bathroom wall that included racial slurs and
references to last April's Virginia Tech shootings. Learn about other
recent school shootings »
One of the threats said "things will change most hastily" in the final
days of the semester.
Peters said there is no evidence that points to a link between the
December incident and Thursday's shooting.
Grady said it was unlikely authorities could have prevented Thursday's
tragedy. "As much as we do, it's unlikely that anyone would ever have the
ability to stop an incident like this from beginning," he said.
Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich declared a state of emergency, which will
open the governor's disaster fund to reimburse local government entities
for "extraordinary expenses related to the response in NIU DeKalb" and
will allow the state Emergency Management Agency to provide assistance,
the governor's office said in a statement.
The 113-year-old school is 65 miles west of downtown Chicago and has an
enrollment of more than 25,000. The campus covers 755 acres. See a map of
where the shooting took place » E-mail to a friend
Mxsmanic
2008-02-16 04:20:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Lippschitz
Grady said it was unlikely authorities could have prevented Thursday's
tragedy. "As much as we do, it's unlikely that anyone would ever have the
ability to stop an incident like this from beginning," he said.
Remove the guns, and it won't happen.
Post by Dr. Lippschitz
Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich declared a state of emergency ...
Is he competing for Greatest Overreaction of the Year or something? If so,
the competition is fierce.
Governor Swill
2008-02-17 07:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Lippschitz
DEKALB, Illinois (CNN) -- A gunperson dressed in black stepped from behind a
curtain at the front of a large lecture hall at Northern Illinois University
on Thursday and shot 21 people, five of them fatally, then shot and killed
himself, said university president John Peters.
I'd like to take this opportunity to criticize asshole Lippshchitz for
posting a *modified* article without noting his modifications and not
providing the link so his modification might go unnoticed.

Swill
Avenger
2008-02-17 09:41:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Governor Swill
Post by Dr. Lippschitz
DEKALB, Illinois (CNN) -- A gunperson dressed in black stepped from behind a
curtain at the front of a large lecture hall at Northern Illinois University
on Thursday and shot 21 people, five of them fatally, then shot and killed
himself, said university president John Peters.
I'd like to take this opportunity to criticize asshole Lippshchitz for
posting a *modified* article without noting his modifications and not
providing the link so his modification might go unnoticed.
The good doctor is accustomed to dealing with intelligent sophisticated
persons who would notice the modifications and understand why it was
modified without giving them a lesson in semantics. Apparently it slipped
the good doctor's mind that he was on the Internet where any stumblebum with
a few dollars can by a computer and get access.
Post by Governor Swill
Swill<< been swilling too much
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